Trinity

[Confused]

For the purpose of this thread, I am looking for validation amongst the 3 most popular Creeds that are used to support the notion of the Trinity:

The Nicene Creed:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/index ... icene.html

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Here, we see how the 3 entities are distinctly separate, with separate roles, etc.. They all share the same "substance" but are they really the same? I share the same substance as my mother and father, am I not my own entity, but a trinity? Actually, since there are 9 kids in my family, it wouldn't be a trinity but, yeah, don't recall what nine would but, but that.

I see no explicit mention here and I think one would have to stretch things far to see an implicit one as well.


The Apostles Creed:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/index ... creed.html

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell. [See Calvin]

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

See absolutely nothing here to even imply it.



And the Athanasian Creed:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/index ... asian.html

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son and another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son and such is the Holy Spirit.
The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Spirit uncreate.
The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.
As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensibles, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty;
And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
And yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord.
For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every person by himself to be God and Lord;
so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say: There are three Gods or three Lords.
The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
And in this Trinity none is afore, nor after another; none is greater, or less than another.
But the whole three persons are co-eternal, and co-equal.
So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and made of the substance of His mother, born in the world.
Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the manhood into God.
One altogether, not by the confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
He ascended into heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty;
From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
And shall give account of their own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.

Now we reach the bread and butter, one in which there is mention of the trinity, explicitly. So is this the creed that should supersede all others? Is this the only valid one here? Or does the fact that it came so much later and was a variation of the original, make it really invalid?

[piglet17]

"Kingdom of His life"
Can you explain more? "Kingdom" means "organised domain" of territory.

Kingdom of plants. Kingdom of animals. Kingdom of lions.
To be part of the kingdom of God, you or i need the life of God.
"Unless one's born from above, he can't see the kingdom of God. Unless one's born of water and the Spirit, he can't enter into the kingdom of God, that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"

Greek "basileia" is the "realm, region or country of a king", more than just citizens.
His followers are anointed to rule over what territory and people?

He'll inherit the earth (Psalm 2).
However, His followers are called to enter into Him, as the good land.
Colossians 1:12-13; 2:6, 17

[Goat]

"Kingdom of His life"
Can you explain more? "Kingdom" means "organised domain" of territory.

Kingdom of plants. Kingdom of animals. Kingdom of lions.
To be part of the kingdom of God, you or i need the life of God.
"Unless one's born from above, he can't see the kingdom of God. Unless one's born of water and the Spirit, he can't enter into the kingdom of God, that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"

Greek "basileia" is the "realm, region or country of a king", more than just citizens.
His followers are anointed to rule over what territory and people?

He'll inherit the earth (Psalm 2).
However, His followers are called to enter into Him, as the good land.
Colossians 1:12-13; 2:6, 17

Psalm 2 was not talking about Jesus. Psalm 2 was talking about King David..

[piglet17]

Psalm 2 was not talking about Jesus. Psalm 2 was talking about King David..

David is about Jesus.
(And everything positive in the universe is about Him.
Since Christ is its Maker)

John 5:39 Colossians 2:17 Acts 2:25-32 Matthew 22:42-45 1:1 Revelation 22:16
etc

[Goat]

Psalm 2 was not talking about Jesus. Psalm 2 was talking about King David..

David is about Jesus.
(And everything positive in the universe is about Him.
Since Christ is its Maker)

John 5:39 Colossians 2:17 Acts 2:25-32 Matthew 22:42-45 1:1 Revelation 22:16
etc

Well, not according to the writer of Psalms. The writer of Psalms just so happens not to have been Christian.

[Cathar1950]

Psalm 2 was not talking about Jesus. Psalm 2 was talking about King David..

David is about Jesus.
(And everything positive in the universe is about Him.
Since Christ is its Maker)

John 5:39 Colossians 2:17 Acts 2:25-32 Matthew 22:42-45 1:1 Revelation 22:16
etc

That is the problem, for the Christian everything is about Jesus and they read Jesus into everything they read even when it is claerly about someone or something else.
Quoting NT passages only tells us what some Christian writers wrote and does not settle the debate except to the believer. I see it as a form of idolatry, even secondary as not only are you giving all the attributes of God to a man you call Jesu but you claim a collection of writings by proto-orthodox believers is God's Word.

[piglet17]

Well, not according to the writer of Psalms.

To the contrary: Where does Psalm 2 or David say that David's NOT a prophet or that Jews didN'T prophesy about Messiah ?

Where ?

To the contrary: Jews even today call their books "Law Prophets and Writings."
Additionally, God, as in 2 Samuel 7, Himself told David that David's throne and seed would rule forever. And since Solomon etc aren't ruling forever, who do you think will ?
You ?

The writer of Psalms just so happens not to have been Christian.

To the contrary: "Christ" simply means "Messiah." And David, as well as all of the Old Testament writers, most definitely was Messianic. To deny it is to fantasize them into your own religion, or beliefs, whatever they are. Not theirs

That is the problem, for the Christian everything is about Jesus and they read Jesus into everything they read even when it is claerly about someone or something else.

To the contrary: that's not the problem. Christ's the solution. Christ is no one less than God, Himself. In the Bible. OT and New. Whether you believe it or not, the Bible authors surely do. And God, most definitely, is "everything." Everything positive. That is: the reality of every positive thing which God Himself created.
Since there can be nothing better than Him.
Even mankind He created in His own image. After God's own kind.
So not only David, but even "Cathar1950" and "goat" are little pictures, per creation, of their Maker.
Who, again according to the Bible (OT and NT), wasn't "content" to stay far away and only be transcendent above all: but instead also became a human being.
Awesome ! What could be better than this---God in the flesh !!
i love Him

Quoting NT passages only tells us what some Christian writers wrote and does not settle the debate except to the believer. I see it

What debate ?
This thread (not started by me) is entitled "Trinity" !!
It's s'pose to be about the NT, and you're "not settled" it's about the NT ?

What ?

[Cathar1950]

Well, not according to the writer of Psalms.

To the contrary: Where does Psalm 2 or David say that David's NOT a prophet or that Jews didN'T prophesy about Messiah ?

Where ?

Well to the contrary to you too.
Where does it say, outside your reading of the writings, that any prophesy must be fulfilled? I am sure you don’t see your circular reasoning. As a matter of fact there was no King on the throne of David since the exile and even the ones the prophets proclaimed disappeared. Your misunderstanding comes from taking the writings out of context and placing Jesus (unless Jesus is a title for God and not a human name) where God belongs and pretending everything is about him. Many cultic groups see themselves in the Bible passages just like the Christians did. But since the exile there has been no king and therefore the prophesy about someone always being on the throne of David didn’t come to pass because a gap is not forever.

To the contrary: Jews even today call their books "Law Prophets and Writings."
Additionally, God, as in 2 Samuel 7, Himself told David that David's throne and seed would rule forever. And since Solomon etc aren't ruling forever, who do you think will ?
You ?

We know what the books are called. What is your point? You seem to just run off the mouth with random stuff your get from apologists and because you and other believers are convinced seem to think that settles it. Even scripture doesn’t settle it as many prophesies didn’t come to pass or sometimes they were just off. No one needs to rule on David’s throne and they didn’t.
Yet His seed didn’t rule forever as a gap is not forever.

The writer of Psalms just so happens not to have been Christian.

To the contrary: "Christ" simply means "Messiah." And David, as well as all of the Old Testament writers, most definitely was Messianic. To deny it is to fantasize them into your own religion, or beliefs, whatever they are. Not theirs

To the contrary: you don’t use “Christ” where it simply means Messiah. Priest, prophets and kings were anointed. Even Cyrus the Great was God’s anointed. You are projecting your Sunday school stories into the whole collection of writings.

That is the problem, for the Christian everything is about Jesus and they read Jesus into everything they read even when it is clearly about someone or something else.

To the contrary: that's not the problem. Christ's the solution. Christ is no one less than God, Himself. In the Bible. OT and New. Whether you believe it or not, the Bible authors surely do. And God, most definitely, is "everything." Everything positive. That is: the reality of every positive thing which God Himself created.
Since there can be nothing better than Him.
Even mankind He created in His own image. After God's own kind.
So not only David, but even "Cathar1950" and "goat" are little pictures, per creation, of their Maker.
Who, again according to the Bible (OT and NT), wasn't "content" to stay far away and only be transcendent above all: but instead also became a human being.
Awesome ! What could be better than this---God in the flesh !!
i love Him.

Thank you for making my case.

Quoting NT passages only tells us what some Christian writers wrote and does not settle the debate except to the believer. I see it

What debate ?
This thread (not started by me) is entitled "Trinity" !!
It's s'pose to be about the NT, and you're "not settled" it's about the NT ?

What ?

I am not satisfied with you long winded ramblings that seems to be unaware of the writings in there context or history and evolution.
Just because Bible authors, mostly unknown, doesn’t make it true or fact.
Except for senseless sermonizing you have presented nothing that is even relevant and you don’t seem to understand what I mean about settling the issue with unexplained or even unquoted NT passages. Paul thought a lot of crazy stuff and wasn’t always that clear, coherent or consistent.

[chimera]

The actual terms of David's kingdom were "(G-d) shall certainly raise up your seed after you..and (G-d) shall indeed firmly establish his kingdom...your throne will become one firmly established to time indefinite" 2 Sam 7.12-16. The future permanent throne is also prophesied in 1 Chron. 17.11-14. The last quote refers to 1 person as son of G-d.

[piglet17]

Where does it say, outside your reading of the writings, that any prophesy must be fulfilled?

Any prophesy outside of the Bible may not be fulfilled.
Any within will. Since it's God's

there was no King on the throne of David since the exile and even the ones the prophets proclaimed disappeared.

To the contrary: the prophets proclaimed Christ, and He appeared

unless Jesus is a title for God and not a human name

God is God and man now.
Since He became flesh

since the exile there has been no king and therefore the prophesy about someone always being on the throne of David didn’t come to pass because a gap is not forever.

To the contrary: 2 Samuel 7:13 didn't say when forever starts

We know what the books are called. What is your point?

That they're not false prophets, like yourself

You seem to just run off the mouth with random stuff your get from apologists and because you and other believers are convinced seem to think that settles it.

"Prophets" is random when we're discussing prophecy ?

Even scripture doesn’t settle it as many prophesies didn’t come to pass or sometimes they were just off.

To the contrary: you're off

No one needs to rule on David’s throne and they didn’t.

To the contrary: "I'll raise up your seed after you, which will come forth from your body, and I'll establish his kingdom. It's he who will build a house for My name, and I'll establish the throne of his kingdom forever"

Yet His seed didn’t rule forever as a gap is not forever.

Even if your posts were forever, they'd be as empty and meaningless as they are now. In any case, 2 Samuel 7:12-13 reads "throne of his kingdom forever."
Not "seed forever." Though in Christ's Divine case: He's I Am

you don’t use “Christ” where it simply means Messiah.

To the contrary: "Christ" is Greek for "Anointed," "Messiah" in Hebrew

Priest, prophets and kings were anointed. Even Cyrus the Great was God’s anointed. You are projecting your Sunday school stories into the whole collection of writings.

Priests, prophets, kings, and Cyrus R my Sunday (and everyday) school (and outa school) stories and enjoyment

Thank you for making my case.

Your case, like mine, is that we need Christ Jesus

Just because Bible authors, mostly unknown, doesn’t make it true or fact. Except for senseless sermonizing...

What's senseless to me is your sermon's first clause without a verb.
Bible authors...............what ?

Paul thought a lot of crazy stuff and wasn’t always that clear, coherent or consistent.

To the contrary: the word of God is clear, coherent, consistent, and unbreakable.
And Paul completed it.
Thnx

[Cathar1950]

Where does it say, outside your reading of the writings, that any prophesy must be fulfilled?

Any prophesy outside of the Bible may not be fulfilled.
Any within will. Since it's God's

Many of your so-called prophesies are not prophesying even if you claim they are.
Your collections of writings are rather arbitrary and calling them the word of God does not make them the word of God.

there was no King on the throne of David since the exile and even the ones the prophets proclaimed disappeared.

To the contrary: the prophets proclaimed Christ, and He appeared

Some were proclaiming a seed from David would be given the throne and it didn’t happen. Some prophets wrote about an anointed and they were not talking about your Christ.

unless Jesus is a title for God and not a human name

God is God and man now.
Since He became flesh

Like “to the contrary” your words are as empty. God did not become a human, which is a later interpretation. It is your belief and not an established fact. You can’t seem to tell the difference.

since the exile there has been no king and therefore the prophesy about someone always being on the throne of David didn’t come to pass because a gap is not forever.

To the contrary: 2 Samuel 7:13 didn't say when forever starts

No one has been on the throne of David for a very long time. You are just writing in circles.

We know what the books are called. What is your point?

That they're not false prophets, like yourself

Now you are calling me a “false prophet”? I am not even a prophet. Do you see where you come across as a belligerent arrogant know it all that doesn’t seem to know anything, except how to parrot others?

You seem to just run off the mouth with random stuff your get from apologists and because you and other believers are convinced seem to think that settles it.

"Prophets" is random when we're discussing prophecy ?

You show little grasp of the subject and mostly “preach” nonsense.

Even scripture doesn’t settle it as many prophesies didn’t come to pass or sometimes they were just off.

To the contrary: you're off

You need to read more. Maybe we should go over the prophets and prophesy including the fact that Jesus didn’t return soon.

No one needs to rule on David’s throne and they didn’t.

To the contrary: "I'll raise up your seed after you, which will come forth from your body, and I'll establish his kingdom. It's he who will build a house for My name, and I'll establish the throne of his kingdom forever"

No "to the contrary" as there is no reason to think anything had to come true. You are reading into the writings your story, not theirs.

Yet His seed didn’t rule forever as a gap is not forever.

Even if your posts were forever, they'd be as empty and meaningless as they are now. In any case, 2 Samuel 7:12-13 reads "throne of his kingdom forever."
Not "seed forever." Though in Christ's Divine case: He's I Am

To the contrary!

you don’t use “Christ” where it simply means Messiah.

To the contrary: "Christ" is Greek for "Anointed," "Messiah" in Hebrew

But that is not what “Christ” means to you.

Priest, prophets and kings were anointed. Even Cyrus the Great was God’s anointed. You are projecting your Sunday school stories into the whole collection of writings.

Priests, prophets, kings, and Cyrus R my Sunday (and everyday) school (and outa school) stories and enjoyment

More nonsense?

Thank you for making my case.

Your case, like mine, is that we need Christ Jesus

This is what I mean by preaching.

Just because Bible authors, mostly unknown, doesn’t make it true or fact. Except for senseless sermonizing...

What's senseless to me is your sermon's first clause without a verb.
Bible authors...............what ?

I left out “wrote”.

Paul thought a lot of crazy stuff and wasn’t always that clear, coherent or consistent.

To the contrary: the word of God is clear, coherent, consistent, and unbreakable.
And Paul completed it.
Thnx

Paul was confused and could hardly complete a thought.
The word of God would be either His wisdom or His proclamations, not the Christian Bible.