The Delay of the End

[Skeptical]

Hello all. Even though I am skeptical, at the same time, I am saddened and distressed by the many horrific and terrible things that we see go on around us in the world. Therefore, as a skeptic, I still do think about things such as the last days the end times. Therefore, as far as how things just keep going on and on and on, I understand that some Christians apply Habakkuk 2:3 to the situation. So, I would like to know from any type of theist, if they think that Habakkuk 2:3 is being used properly to understand this delayed situation? And the reason why I ask is because that verse seems to be able to justify any type of delay, postponement, or unfulfillment of any type of end time expectation.

New International Version
For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay.

https://biblehub.com/habakkuk/2-3.htm

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #47]
This is about the theme of this thread. God's patience is not about the righteous' salvation, so why bring it up?
"Why do you restrict becoming saved after the Second Coming only to those unrighteous..."
There is no reason to say such a thing. If one is declared righteous their salvation is already secure. I shouldn't have to say anything about the righteous as that is not who this thread is about. The righteous don't need time, the unrighteous do and God is giving to those alive now before Armageddon and giving the unrighteous who never heard of God time after their resurrection during the 1000 year reign of Christ.

The unrighteous who have died will be resurrected after the 1,000 year Millennium (not during) and make their decision about everlasting life or everlasting death at that time. But any living human can be saved by believing in Jesus at that time -- not simply those who never heard of God.

This is a debate for another thread.

OK, so you did not say the above quoted material in this thread?

My bad.

How am I to determine which of your statements are meant to be debated on this thread?

Perhaps you could color stuff to be debated in this thread Red, blue, or your favorite color.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #47]
This is about the theme of this thread. God's patience is not about the righteous' salvation, so why bring it up?
"Why do you restrict becoming saved after the Second Coming only to those unrighteous..."
There is no reason to say such a thing. If one is declared righteous their salvation is already secure. I shouldn't have to say anything about the righteous as that is not who this thread is about. The righteous don't need time, the unrighteous do and God is giving to those alive now before Armageddon and giving the unrighteous who never heard of God time after their resurrection during the 1000 year reign of Christ.

The unrighteous who have died will be resurrected after the 1,000 year Millennium (not during) and make their decision about everlasting life or everlasting death at that time. But any living human can be saved by believing in Jesus at that time -- not simply those who never heard of God.

No, the people who died prior to Armageddon will be resurrected during the 1,000 years of Jesus' reign over the earth. They will also need 1,000 years to become perfect and also to learn about the truth of Jehovah's purposes for the earth and mankind, and to make up their minds about it. They probably won't need all of those years to learn, but there will be others resurrected who will need help in learning the truth, and the ones already resurrected will be able to help out.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #47]
This is about the theme of this thread. God's patience is not about the righteous' salvation, so why bring it up?
"Why do you restrict becoming saved after the Second Coming only to those unrighteous..."
There is no reason to say such a thing. If one is declared righteous their salvation is already secure. I shouldn't have to say anything about the righteous as that is not who this thread is about. The righteous don't need time, the unrighteous do and God is giving to those alive now before Armageddon and giving the unrighteous who never heard of God time after their resurrection during the 1000 year reign of Christ.

The unrighteous who have died will be resurrected after the 1,000 year Millennium (not during) and make their decision about everlasting life or everlasting death at that time. But any living human can be saved by believing in Jesus at that time -- not simply those who never heard of God.

No, the people who died prior to Armageddon will be resurrected during the 1,000 years of Jesus' reign over the earth. They will also need 1,000 years to become perfect and also to learn about the truth of Jehovah's purposes for the earth and mankind, and to make up their minds about it. They probably won't need all of those years to learn, but there will be others resurrected who will need help in learning the truth, and the ones already resurrected will be able to help out.

Wrong!

Every human who ever lived and died will be made alive again, or resurrected. All includes both believers and nonbelievers! However, all will not be resurrected at the same time. There will be an order to the resurrections:

But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:23)

So Jesus will be resurrected first, and that has already occurred. The resurrection which we presently await is the one at which those "that are Christ's" will be resurrected. Those "that are Christ's" refers to Christians. This resurrection of dead believers in Christ will occur at the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth, or "at his coming."

Christians who are alive on the earth at the time of the Second Coming, will be changed by being born again of the Spirit as spiritual bodied beings and meet Jesus and the resurrected Christians in the air:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

All of these born again believers will then spend the millennium Sabbath with Jesus:

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

During this time, there will be no living human believers on the earth, as all dead and living believers gained everlasting spiritual bodied life within the Kingdom of God at the Second Coming, and there should be no new human believers on the earth because they have no preachers:

Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

All of the Christian preachers are enjoying the Millennium with Jesus.

All of the remaining dead humans to be resurrected are nonbelievers. They will be resurrected as humans once again after the Millennium:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5)

They will then face the judgment.

Following their judgment, those humans whose names are written in the Book of LIfe will be born again as immortal spirits into the Kingdom of God.

Those humans whose names are not in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second and everlasting physical death!

When the last living human is either born again into the Kingdom of God or cast into the lake of fire and dies, the age of man will be over, as there will be no more living men.

The earth will once again be part of the Kingdom of God and be ruled by Jesus and those humans who were born of the Spirit and become equal unto the angels.

[Skeptical]

[Skeptical]

[Replying to Skeptical in post #38]

You claim there will be a delay in the coming of the end of times.

But the scriptures as inspired by God state that there will be no delay:

Habakkuk 2:3 New International Version

For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay.

Given those two possible choices, I believe what the scriptures!

Okay, Stephen Hawking, so what about the part where it says, "Though it linger"?

[Skeptical]

2Peter 3:8,9, the scripture that OWH quoted is a key scripture but so is Psalm 14:1, 2. Jehovah God is seeking those with insight. The root word of the Hebrew word insight is prudent.

Insight definition:
the capacity to gain an accurate and deep intuitive understanding of a person or thing.

Prudent definition:
1. acting with or showing care and thought for the future
2. showing good judgment in avoiding risks and uncertainties; careful

Psalm 14:2 says that God is also seeking those that are seeking Him. We all must ask the question, what kind of person am I?

Jehovah has a set date, that date is set so as to allow as many possible that are deep thinkers, those that see past the veneer of the world and those that seek God and are smart enough to think about the future and avoid the day when all the horrible things we see are brought to an end. Yet a morbid fear of judgment on the world is not a reason to serve God.

I have an additional question. Is that something new with JWs? That God is extending the last days because he needs to find more smart people to be JWs before the end comes? Because I have never heard of that before and I kind of keep up with JWs through youtube videos.

No. When the Bible says that a date has been set, that's it. There is no extending taking place. If you have never heard that before is because no has said that before. I think you're hearing what you want to hear. If you're keeping up with JWs through youtube that is a mistake. www.jw.org is the official way to keep up with us.

So, could you show me a jw.org video or jw.org article where it says that God is holding up the end of the world because he's trying to find more smart people to worship him?

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2010010#h=19:0-22:0
"Holding up the end o the world" isn't really an accurate description. It's not past due or being held up. It will happen right on time. But the reason there is a set time and not on our time table is so that people with wisdom can have time to be granted salvation.

So, then why are some of you all saying that God is holding up the end of the world because he's looking for more smart people?????

[Skeptical]

2Peter 3:8,9, the scripture that OWH quoted is a key scripture but so is Psalm 14:1, 2. Jehovah God is seeking those with insight. The root word of the Hebrew word insight is prudent.

Insight definition:
the capacity to gain an accurate and deep intuitive understanding of a person or thing.

Prudent definition:
1. acting with or showing care and thought for the future
2. showing good judgment in avoiding risks and uncertainties; careful

Psalm 14:2 says that God is also seeking those that are seeking Him. We all must ask the question, what kind of person am I?

Jehovah has a set date, that date is set so as to allow as many possible that are deep thinkers, those that see past the veneer of the world and those that seek God and are smart enough to think about the future and avoid the day when all the horrible things we see are brought to an end. Yet a morbid fear of judgment on the world is not a reason to serve God.

I have an additional question. Is that something new with JWs? That God is extending the last days because he needs to find more smart people to be JWs before the end comes? Because I have never heard of that before and I kind of keep up with JWs through youtube videos.

No. When the Bible says that a date has been set, that's it. There is no extending taking place. If you have never heard that before is because no has said that before. I think you're hearing what you want to hear. If you're keeping up with JWs through youtube that is a mistake. www.jw.org is the official way to keep up with us.

So, could you show me a jw.org video or jw.org article where it says that God is holding up the end of the world because he's trying to find more smart people to worship him?

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2010010#h=19:0-22:0
"Holding up the end o the world" isn't really an accurate description. It's not past due or being held up. It will happen right on time. But the reason there is a set time and not on our time table is so that people with wisdom can have time to be granted salvation.

To Skeptical: "Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." (2Peter 3:9)

But in theory, couldn't that apply perpetually? (I.e. As far as the underlying principle of needing to want to find those few good people who are still out there?)

[Skeptical]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #47]
This is about the theme of this thread. God's patience is not about the righteous' salvation, so why bring it up?
"Why do you restrict becoming saved after the Second Coming only to those unrighteous..."
There is no reason to say such a thing. If one is declared righteous their salvation is already secure. I shouldn't have to say anything about the righteous as that is not who this thread is about. The righteous don't need time, the unrighteous do and God is giving to those alive now before Armageddon and giving the unrighteous who never heard of God time after their resurrection during the 1000 year reign of Christ.

The unrighteous who have died will be resurrected after the 1,000 year Millennium (not during) and make their decision about everlasting life or everlasting death at that time. But any living human can be saved by believing in Jesus at that time -- not simply those who never heard of God.

No, the people who died prior to Armageddon will be resurrected during the 1,000 years of Jesus' reign over the earth. They will also need 1,000 years to become perfect and also to learn about the truth of Jehovah's purposes for the earth and mankind, and to make up their minds about it. They probably won't need all of those years to learn, but there will be others resurrected who will need help in learning the truth, and the ones already resurrected will be able to help out.

Wrong!

Every human who ever lived and died will be made alive again, or resurrected. All includes both believers and nonbelievers! However, all will not be resurrected at the same time. There will be an order to the resurrections:

But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:23)

So Jesus will be resurrected first, and that has already occurred. The resurrection which we presently await is the one at which those "that are Christ's" will be resurrected. Those "that are Christ's" refers to Christians. This resurrection of dead believers in Christ will occur at the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth, or "at his coming."

Christians who are alive on the earth at the time of the Second Coming, will be changed by being born again of the Spirit as spiritual bodied beings and meet Jesus and the resurrected Christians in the air:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

All of these born again believers will then spend the millennium Sabbath with Jesus:

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

During this time, there will be no living human believers on the earth, as all dead and living believers gained everlasting spiritual bodied life within the Kingdom of God at the Second Coming, and there should be no new human believers on the earth because they have no preachers:

Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

All of the Christian preachers are enjoying the Millennium with Jesus.

All of the remaining dead humans to be resurrected are nonbelievers. They will be resurrected as humans once again after the Millennium:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5)

They will then face the judgment.

Following their judgment, those humans whose names are written in the Book of LIfe will be born again as immortal spirits into the Kingdom of God.

Those humans whose names are not in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second and everlasting physical death!

When the last living human is either born again into the Kingdom of God or cast into the lake of fire and dies, the age of man will be over, as there will be no more living men.

The earth will once again be part of the Kingdom of God and be ruled by Jesus and those humans who were born of the Spirit and become equal unto the angels.

Interesting stuff, 3CPO, but why not save it for another topic? Also, I would like to know whether or not Adam and Eve, the people who died in Noah's flood, the people who died in Sodom and Gomorrah, Judas Iscariot, and the scribes and the Pharisee who Jesus said sinned against or blasphemed the holy spirit are going to be resurrected, but not now.

[myth-one.com]

Interesting stuff, 3CPO, but why not save it for another topic?

Sorry, I thought you wanted to know.

Also, I would like to know whether or not Adam and Eve, the people who died in Noah's flood, the people who died in Sodom and Gomorrah, Judas Iscariot, and the scribes and the Pharisee who Jesus said sinned against or blasphemed the holy spirit are going to be resurrected,. . .

Yes, every human who ever died will be resurrected.

. . . but not now.

Say when you're ready.

[Skeptical]

Interesting stuff, 3CPO, but why not save it for another topic? Also, I would like to know whether or not Adam and Eve, the people who died in Noah's flood, the people who died in Sodom and Gomorrah, Judas Iscariot, and the scribes and the Pharisee who Jesus said sinned against or blasphemed the holy spirit are going to be resurrected,. . .

Yes, every human who ever died will be resurrected.

. . . but not now.

Say when.

You can start a new thread anytime that you want to. I just started a spin-off thread from another thread this evening: viewtopic.php?t=40700