Capitalism vs. Socialism/Marxism

[WinePusher]

I view Marxism as inherently toxic. It's victims last century far outnumber those of any other ideology. The Nazis and KKK demonized groups based on race, Marxism demonizes groups based on class. There's not much difference.

I disagree. I think you're basing this on the worst possible examples of communist dictatorships and ignoring the fact that marxist doctrine itself doesn't call for violence. It doesn't demonize people based on economic class, either.

Look up Michelle Bachelet. She's a recent former president of Chile (chosen democratically), a socialist, and she did a very good job. Chile's now in a much better socio-economic state, way ahead than most Latinamerican countries.

Questions:

1) Which economic system is more just to the poor, give reasons?

2) Which economic system would you prefer: Lassiez Faire Capitalism or Totalitarianist Marxism. no moderate positions please, and give reasons.

3) Which economic system is more beneficial to a society?

Let's try to avoid moderate positions that incorporate both economic systems in this thread.

[Kuan]

What about the minimum wage, although it helps the worker, it also hurts the worker.

Ex. Sammy's Ice Cream Shop has 12$/hr to hire workers.
They hire Linda and Sam for 6$/hr.

The government passes a new law that raises minimum wage from 6 to 7$/hr. Now Sammy's has to fire one of there employees, even though they are both happy with 6$/hr.

Also raising it over and over will cause more companies an incentive to go over seas.

You are saying he theoretically fire the employee. I can theoretically say the increased wages will lead to increased productivity and increased sales.

If you want to question the validity of the minimum wage, take a look back at history before it.

One book out there dismantles everything libertarianism stands for and thats "A Peoples History of the United States" it shows the struggles behind and the reasons why we have a 40 hour work week, minimum wage, regulation, etc...

Im not against minimum wage at all, just sometimes the government likes to raise it to help the people with lower class jobs. Instead of helping it also hurts. It also drives companies to hire illegal immigrants. There should be a minimum wage but raising it over and over doesnt help.

[Board]

Im not against minimum wage at all, just sometimes the government likes to raise it to help the people with lower class jobs. Instead of helping it also hurts. It also drives companies to hire illegal immigrants. There should be a minimum wage but raising it over and over doesnt help.

It is all about perspective. At my company the CEO makes $30 mil a year, just bought a new ranch in Wyoming and is relocating the top execs from our office in San Diego to Dallas under the guise of easier travel access but we all know it is to get away from California taxes and go to no state income tax in Texas...

but anyway...

Our stock has gone up up up. We are making money left and right even in this bad economy and employees in our North America division have not received a raise in 3 years. Why? Because we ONLY made $200 mil last year. We missed the number they wanted us to make so no raises... except the CEO got a 300% increase.

It is tactics like this that have been around forever. It is blatant exploitation of the masses. There is no reason to treat the working people poorly. Every single person I work with is chomping at the bit to get out of this place but jobs are still scarce in Michigan so we grin and bear it and print resumes.

Increases minimum wage forces big greedy business like mine to treat people like people. They have the money and they are either lying or misusing corporate funds if they try and say anything otherwise.

The only area where this might be an issue is in the very small businesses but even then what is to say that there are not other factors closing them down?

My local convenient store just closed. Michigan recently passed a law on Lotto sales that if you do not sell more than 100 lotto tickets then the state took the machines back. The lotto machine is what brought in the sales for that shop so they could no longer afford to stay open. And I'm mad because it is the only place I could walk to for beer!

There are too many factors that have gone into the demise of small business and the exploitation of the American worker. The government has helped in a lot of cases and hindered in probably just as many. But having corporations in legislators pockets is becoming a big problem. Look at the recent story on ALEC (NPR so of course some people will reject it with an ad hominem...)

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =130891396

Legislators sitting down with lawyers of corporations and taking laws written by corporations and bringing them to the floor? they are attending conferences and being wined and dined and it is not considered lobbying? And ALEC coordinating all of this is a non-profit organization?

I'm all for Capitalism but we need a taller wall between the corporations of America and our law makers in Washington.

[Kuan]

I see your point. But instead of raising minimum wage, why not implement the wage program that we were discussing previously?

[Board]

I see your point. But instead of raising minimum wage, why not implement the wage program that we were discussing previously?

Which one? I have not read the entire thread... sorry.

About making sure there is not a striking disparity between CEO and worker? Like my company of 600 employees and the CEO makes $30 million and the lowest full time employee makes $10/hr? That would make sense but how do you enforce that and at what scale is it agreed upon?

The private big box store my wife works for I feel is a model company that treats their employees fairly and dishes out millions in profit sharing to every employee. Even the part time people get bonuses there. They make money like crazy.... her store alone has $250 mil in sales and her department has a 20% profit margin. So she gets raises and has cleared more than $10k in bonuses this year. But then they are still a private company and should we interfere?

I don't know... I'm kind of up in the air on a lot of this because I see the good and bad in all of it and don't know if I really can trust anyone to pass judgement on what is fair for all.

[Kuan]

I see your point. But instead of raising minimum wage, why not implement the wage program that we were discussing previously?

Which one? I have not read the entire thread... sorry.

About making sure there is not a striking disparity between CEO and worker? Like my company of 600 employees and the CEO makes $30 million and the lowest full time employee makes $10/hr? That would make sense but how do you enforce that and at what scale is it agreed upon?

The private big box store my wife works for I feel is a model company that treats their employees fairly and dishes out millions in profit sharing to every employee. Even the part time people get bonuses there. They make money like crazy.... her store alone has $250 mil in sales and her department has a 20% profit margin. So she gets raises and has cleared more than $10k in bonuses this year. But then they are still a private company and should we interfere?

I don't know... I'm kind of up in the air on a lot of this because I see the good and bad in all of it and don't know if I really can trust anyone to pass judgement on what is fair for all.

The wage program we are talking about earlier basically is this. If a companies profit increases then they should increase their workers pay rate. Simple idea. One more thing I want to point out is this: Specialization. You are paid at the level that your work deserves. If you have a high school degree and your flipping burgers for mcdonalds, you shouldnt be making 35$/hr. But you shouldnt be making $5/hr. People go to college to earn degrees and gain knowledge so they can make more money. Your work should only be paid what its worth.

[Board]

One more thing I want to point out is this: Specialization. You are paid at the level that your work deserves. If you have a high school degree and your flipping burgers for mcdonalds, you shouldnt be making 35$/hr. But you shouldnt be making $5/hr. People go to college to earn degrees and gain knowledge so they can make more money. Your work should only be paid what its worth.

Well... I only have some of a college education and I can tell you right now that a lot of the college hype is a scam. It shows people you have the ability to learn and in most jobs you will not even use the degree. I was studying computer engineering, dropped out and got into IT. I now run a data center and had to learn Electrical Engineering and HVAC concepts practically overnight and the company won't pay for training. I have taken a very poorly efficient data center and reduced power consumption and cooling costs by 30%.

So paying people based on their degree is not justified.

Performance and responsibilities are a better judge of the worker.

But then most companies due give raises based on this concept. But is this something the government has the right to enforce? It is all very subjective...

[Kuan]

One more thing I want to point out is this: Specialization. You are paid at the level that your work deserves. If you have a high school degree and your flipping burgers for mcdonalds, you shouldnt be making 35$/hr. But you shouldnt be making $5/hr. People go to college to earn degrees and gain knowledge so they can make more money. Your work should only be paid what its worth.

Well... I only have some of a college education and I can tell you right now that a lot of the college hype is a scam. It shows people you have the ability to learn and in most jobs you will not even use the degree. I was studying computer engineering, dropped out and got into IT. I now run a data center and had to learn Electrical Engineering and HVAC concepts practically overnight and the company won't pay for training. I have taken a very poorly efficient data center and reduced power consumption and cooling costs by 30%.

So paying people based on their degree is not justified.

Performance and responsibilities are a better judge of the worker.

But then most companies due give raises based on this concept. But is this something the government has the right to enforce? It is all very subjective...

I didnt say pay by degree, pay by the job. How do you get the job? By being better qualified for it. If they dont like you and your not good even though you have the degree, they will fire you and get someone else. College grads make a lot more per year than high school grads. Yes a lot of the GE credits are useless but your major is important. You study what your going to be doing in the career you pick.

[nygreenguy]

What about the minimum wage, although it helps the worker, it also hurts the worker.

Ex. Sammy's Ice Cream Shop has 12$/hr to hire workers.
They hire Linda and Sam for 6$/hr.

The government passes a new law that raises minimum wage from 6 to 7$/hr. Now Sammy's has to fire one of there employees, even though they are both happy with 6$/hr.

Also raising it over and over will cause more companies an incentive to go over seas.

You are saying he theoretically fire the employee. I can theoretically say the increased wages will lead to increased productivity and increased sales.

If you want to question the validity of the minimum wage, take a look back at history before it.

One book out there dismantles everything libertarianism stands for and thats "A Peoples History of the United States" it shows the struggles behind and the reasons why we have a 40 hour work week, minimum wage, regulation, etc...

Im not against minimum wage at all, just sometimes the government likes to raise it to help the people with lower class jobs. Instead of helping it also hurts. It also drives companies to hire illegal immigrants. There should be a minimum wage but raising it over and over doesnt help.

If you look at the purpose of it, it sure as heck needs to be raised. It hasnt kept up with the cost of living in over 30 years (iirc).

[nygreenguy]

I didnt say pay by degree, pay by the job. How do you get the job? By being better qualified for it. If they dont like you and your not good even though you have the degree, they will fire you and get someone else. College grads make a lot more per year than high school grads. Yes a lot of the GE credits are useless but your major is important. You study what your going to be doing in the career you pick.

One of the problems is there isnt always equal access to becoming qualified. (The whole "right to the pursuit of happiness). We still see huge pay gaps between genders and races.

[Kuan]

I didnt say pay by degree, pay by the job. How do you get the job? By being better qualified for it. If they dont like you and your not good even though you have the degree, they will fire you and get someone else. College grads make a lot more per year than high school grads. Yes a lot of the GE credits are useless but your major is important. You study what your going to be doing in the career you pick.

One of the problems is there isnt always equal access to becoming qualified. (The whole "right to the pursuit of happiness). We still see huge pay gaps between genders and races.

Well, there is more equal access now then ever before. But there are huge gaps in certain parts of the country.