Moderator: Moderators
For debate:Salon.com wrote: A federal judge in Wisconsin ruled the National Day of Prayer unconstitutional Thursday, saying the day amounts to a call for religious action.
U.S. District Judge Barbara Crabb wrote that the government can no more enact laws supporting a day of prayer than it can encourage citizens to fast during Ramadan, attend a synagogue or practice magic.
Considering over 87% of americans are people of faith (gallup) and we live in a country ruled by popular sovereignty, shouldn't the majority of americans be allowed a national day of prayer.Lucia wrote:The fact that no names are being given means nothing. By calling it day of PRAYER, it obviously refers exclusively to those faiths that include prayer.East of Eden wrote:No it doesn't. No church is being established.
So?East of Eden wrote:The vast majority do.
Maybe that vast majority would consider funding their Day of Prayer with private funds? That would be awesome.
School is not for promoting ideas, it's for teaching and learning. Since nobody holds the monopoly on truth, schools should teach what is currently accepted as the most complete and probable explanation to each matter, present it's evidence, and instruct the kids and teenagers to come to their own conclusions.East of Eden wrote:Are you also upset that tax money is used to promote ideas in public schools that many disagree with?
As a parent, you're always free to teach your kids an alternate explanation.
Oh, so it's ok to have a publicly funded day on the matter of religion as long as it agrees well with your point of view, but if someone wants to have a day about how awesome not being religious is and funded it with your tax money, it's unconstitutional.East of Eden wrote:It would be an infringement on the constitutional right to free excercise of religion, probably. Like if you had an anti-freedom of speech day.
Turn the table around and you'll see why some of us disagree with the National Day of Prayer.
You're missing the point. Religion should not be the business of a secular government.winepusher wrote: Far to long have these tiny atheist lobbying firms gotten their way while the Christian majority has been silent. If you're an atheist, simply don't participate in any religious event.
Right, I never said that I think religion should be part of the government. I favor the seperation of church and state. But I see no problem with setting aside one day, out of the entire year, devoted to praying (which is by no means a bad thing). You might have a case if the national day of prayer caused violence or chaos, but it is simply people of faith coming to together to pray for this country.McCulloch wrote:You're missing the point. Religion should not be the business of a secular government.winepusher wrote: Far to long have these tiny atheist lobbying firms gotten their way while the Christian majority has been silent. If you're an atheist, simply don't participate in any religious event.
winepusher wrote:Right, I never said that I think religion should be part of the government. I favor the seperation of church and state. But I see no problem with setting aside one day, out of the entire year, devoted to praying (which is by no means a bad thing). You might have a case if the national day of prayer caused violence or chaos, but it is simply people of faith coming to together to pray for this country.McCulloch wrote:You're missing the point. Religion should not be the business of a secular government.winepusher wrote: Far to long have these tiny atheist lobbying firms gotten their way while the Christian majority has been silent. If you're an atheist, simply don't participate in any religious event.
Then, have a private organization declare the 'day of prayer'. It should not go through the government.winepusher wrote:
Right, I never said that I think religion should be part of the government. I favor the seperation of church and state. But I see no problem with setting aside one day, out of the entire year, devoted to praying (which is by no means a bad thing). You might have a case if the national day of prayer caused violence or chaos, but it is simply people of faith coming to together to pray for this country.
"Popular sovereignty" is a bit of a misnomer here, where there are laws in place designed to prevent a "tyrany of the majority". Such can be witnessed in the House of Representatives, where each state is allowed two representatives, as a counter to the House of Congress, where representatives are based on population.winepusher wrote: Considering over 87% of americans are people of faith (gallup) and we live in a country ruled by popular sovereignty, shouldn't the majority of americans be allowed a national day of prayer.
That's just plain, old-fashioned projection. (With 'pologies to Sheriff Buford T. Justice, of Texas)winepusher wrote: Far to long have these tiny atheist lobbying firms gotten their way while the Christian majority has been silent. If your an atheist, simply don't participate in any religious event.
A fine example of the cognitive dissonance many theists display.winepusher wrote: Right, I never said that I think religion should be part of the government. I favor the seperation of church and state. But I see no problem with setting aside one day, out of the entire year, devoted to praying (which is by no means a bad thing).
From your perspective. From my perspective, and the referenced court's, it is the government attempting to get folks to perform a religious act.winepusher wrote: You might have a case if the national day of prayer caused violence or chaos, but it is simply people of faith coming to together to pray for this country.
I have absolutely no problem with people praying, or even having a Day of Prayer if they like. What I do have a problem with is MY tax money being used to promote religions that I do not agree with. The government of the United States of America is supposed to be secular. Maybe it's about time it started acting like it.winepusher wrote: Considering over 87% of americans are people of faith (gallup) and we live in a country ruled by popular sovereignty, shouldn't the majority of americans be allowed a national day of prayer.
Far to long have these tiny atheist lobbying firms gotten their way while the Christian majority has been silent. If your an atheist, simply don't participate in any religious event.
Why not?bernee51 wrote:winepusher wrote:Right, I never said that I think religion should be part of the government. I favor the seperation of church and state. But I see no problem with setting aside one day, out of the entire year, devoted to praying (which is by no means a bad thing). You might have a case if the national day of prayer caused violence or chaos, but it is simply people of faith coming to together to pray for this country.McCulloch wrote:You're missing the point. Religion should not be the business of a secular government.winepusher wrote: Far to long have these tiny atheist lobbying firms gotten their way while the Christian majority has been silent. If you're an atheist, simply don't participate in any religious event.
I assume then that on this 'day of prayer' Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Pastafarians can join in?
No, Congress is not supposed to establish a particular church as a state church. The Day of Prayer doesn't do that. There is no Constituttionally mandated separation of faith and state.Lucia wrote: I have absolutely no problem with people praying, or even having a Day of Prayer if they like. What I do have a problem with is MY tax money being used to promote religions that I do not agree with. The government of the United States of America is supposed to be secular.
I'm sure you can find someone to oppose whatever the government spends money on.If such a large number of US citizens feel so strongly about the Day of Prayer, it shouldn't be too hard to gather private funds sufficient to keep having it, right?
A secular state such as the United States of America is not supposed to endorse any particular religion, but it's also not supposed to favor religiousness over non-religiousness.East of Eden wrote: No, Congress is not supposed to establish a particular church as a state church. The Day of Prayer doesn't do that. There is no Constituttionally mandated separation of faith and state.
Probably. So?East of Eden wrote:I'm sure you can find someone to oppose whatever the government spends money on.
