myth-one.com wrote:
I John 3:4 wrote:For sin is the transgression of the law.
Romans 5:13 wrote:For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Sin is the act of transgressing any of God's law. God "wrote" the laws. But committing a sinful act is not a sin unless there is a law defining that act as a sin.
God originally gave the law to the Children of Israel. We can look at their history and see how this system works and is applied.
From their history it is obvious that to "have" a law includes knowledge of and understanding the law:
Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it. (Deuteronomy 1:39)
myth-one.com wrote:The Children of Israel were being punished for worshiping the golden calf while Moses was up the mountain talking with God. Those committing the sin would not be allowed to enter the Promised Land. They wandered lost in the desert for forty years until all the "adults" died off. Those that were children when the sin was committed had probably been around when the law was taught. But even thought the law was there at the time, they did not understand the law in that day when the golden calf was worshiped -- as they were children. Thus the sin was not imputed to them -- and they were allowed to enter the Promised Land.
All other laws are treated in this same manner. If the person does not possess knowledge of the law, it is not counted as sin if he commits that sinful act.
This I believe is where we are having our biggest difference in understanding of the scriptures, you quote Rom 5:13 "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." and firmly believe that not to have "the law"
must mean the same as not to understand the law. However you have posted no clear biblical evidence for this reinterpretation of Rom 5:13. I would like to spend some time supporting my view that you don't have to understand the law to still be guilty before God's eyes.
You wrote this about God's law given to Israel, "
From their history it is obvious that to "have" a law includes knowledge of and understanding the law:" If your statement is true then there should be no biblical evidence to say otherwise, however that is not the case, let's take a look:
Leviticus 4
13 " 'If the whole Israelite community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though the community is unaware of the matter, they are guilty. 14 When they become aware of the sin they committed, the assembly must bring a young bull as a sin offering and present it before the Tent of Meeting.
Notice the declaration for those, and no one is excluded ("the whole Israelite community"), who unknowingly and unintentionally break a law of God, they are declared guilty even before the sin is known. Notice that is says, "when they become aware of the SIN they committed", if it is as you say, then this should not be considered sin until you realize it is sin, but such is not the case.
Leviticus 4
22 " 'When a leader sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the commands of the LORD his God, he is guilty. 23 When he is made aware of the sin he committed, he must bring as his offering a male goat without defect.
Again, God gives us examples over and over to drive his point home, unintentional and unknowing sin is still sin and you are guilty. Notice God says
if anyone does what is forbidden in
ANY of his commands, they are guilty.
You see, having the law, does not and cannot mean understanding the law because it is not supported by scripture. So when we read Rom 5:13 we can understand just what it says:
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Notice that this is telling us that
SIN was in the world before the law came, that is the Mosaic law. These people from the time of Adam to Moses still sinned and still died in their sins even though they had no Mosaic LAW to go by, this is the sin that was not imputed unto those people, for example if you touch any dead thing you have sinned, if you touch any unclean part of a person, etc. In other words, the Levitical law not God's natural laws. (Lev 5:1-3).
If we assume that where it says "but sin is not imputed when there is no law." means that those who had no understanding of any law were not considered guilty of sin then we would have contradictions all throughout the time before the law of Moses:
_When Cain slew his brother, why was he guilty and cursed of God? (Gen 4:9-13) Can you show me a verse that shows us that Cain understood that he should not murder? Because he was certainly held responsable for it.
_When God destroyed the earth because of the wickedness (sin) of mankind, if they had no law, then what sin could they be held accountable for? Yet they were. (Gen 6:5).
_What about Abimelech and Rebekah?
Genesis 26
9 And Abimelech called Isaac, and said, Behold, of a surety she is thy wife; and how saidst thou, She is my sister? And Isaac said unto him, Because I said, Lest I die for her.
10 And Abimelech said, What is this thou hast done unto us? one of the people might lightly have lien with thy wife, and thou shouldest have brought guiltiness upon us.
In this story Abimelech was deceived by Issac into thinking that Rebekah was his sister, so naturally if someone laid with her
no knowing otherwise, they should have not been considered to be guilty,
but such was not the case, as we read, if someone did lay with her,
they would have brought guiltiness upon them.
_Sodom and Gommorah, etc...etc...etc...
So you see, that is why the rest of Rom 5 tells us that " Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression" Notice that despite not having the law, death still reigned from Adam to Moses. This is the context and the application of sin not being imputed, not to a child or to someone who does not have the law in some far off place, the levitical law is no longer observed and it is this very law that is in view in Rom 5:13, that is why people were and can still be held guilty for sin even unknowing sin.
Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are WITHOUT EXCUSE:
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Mankind from creation has had knowledge of the invisible things of God, his eternal power and Godhead, so that men are without excuse.
My focus on this response was to focus first on your statement "
All other laws are treated in this same manner. If the person does not possess knowledge of the law, it is not counted as sin if he commits that sinful act. [/quote] " I hope you are convinced with enough of the biblical evidence that I provided for you, that you statement is not supported by clear scripture, and the scripture that you did use, you did not interpret properly, as I have given you many verses to prove otherwise.
myth-one.com wrote:Nonetheless, the following verses state that
all have sinned:
Romans 3:23 wrote:For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 5:12 wrote:Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
How can that be? If the scriptures were truly inspired by God, then as originally written they contained no errors or contradictions. Is this a contradiction?
Committing sinful acts is not sufficient to committing sin. One must commit the sinful act knowing and understanding that the act
is a sin.
As I have already shown you, one does not have to know they are committing a sinful act to be sinning. You agree that the scriptures are truly inspired by God himself, but continue to deny what it is plainly telling you, the bible says that all have sinned but you say no and try to make up your own understanding of it. Do you believe that spiritual death passed upon all men as this verse teaches? You obviously can't because to you some are sinless. You are still not commenting on the entire section of Romans 5:12-21. The answers you have given on this post do not include such important verses as
"18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
Do you believe what God is saying here or do you choose to use your own reasoning? No matter what view you or I hold, we have to be willing to accept correction, but it has to be biblicaly based and the verses have to be properly used because we will be able to test them against everything else in the bible for harmony. If there is no harmony, then our common sense reasoning must change.
myth-one.com wrote:The verses above state that "all have sinned" not that all have committed sinful acts. These two groups are not identical:
1) All have committed sinful acts: This group includes anyone committing at least one act which violates one of God's laws -- whether or not they are aware of God, His laws, or able to understand the law due to age or handicap.
2) All have sinned: This group includes all who have committed a sinful act fully understanding they were transgressing one of God's laws. Remember that the scriptures state that sin is not imputed when the law is not understood.
Again, here you are playing with words to suit your understanding. First off, you can't change the words of a verse to suit your interpretation, it does not say, "sin is not imputed when the law is not understood." It says "where there is no law".
myth-one.com wrote:The two verses above are discussing the second group -- all have sinned. If the word "all" meant all humanity, there would have been no cause for God to eliminate those who do not understand the law from those who sin in the verses:
Romans 5:13 wrote:For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
James 4:17 wrote:To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
At least we agree that the "second group" is being spoken of in those verses, even though you give no biblical evidence to separate one group from another. The bible clearly teaches that all have sinned meaning all of mankind, the problem is in the way you try to interpret Rom5:13 and then reinterpret all other verses in the bible. You say IF the word "all" meant all humanity in the verse "all have sinned", well what about the words before it?
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
It clearly tells you who it is reffering to when it says "all have sinned" it says "all men" not all those who sin knowingly.
Rom 3:23
23 FOR ALL HAVE SINNED, and come short of the glory of God;
You would not reword this to say "for all WHO sin fall shot of the glory of God". This verse agrees with Rom 5:12, notice it is past tense as something that was already commited, how is this? Well through Adam of course, just as Rom 5:12 says.
Moreover this verse supports the verse in Romans that teaches that all men died because of Adam and are condemned because of Adam:
HEBREWS 9
27 And as it is APPOINTED unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
After Adam sinned he and all men died as the bible teaches, and all men (all humanity) were condemned. This is what humanity is appointed to, once to spiritually die and then condemnation, that is what the word judgment means here. This is how we know physical death is not in view here, because not all saw physical death in the OT and not all will see physical death in the end at the rapture. Moreover if physical death were in view then this verse would be teaching that once you die physically you are condemned and such is not the case as we know that if we don't believe while we are alive we are condemned ALREADY. (John 3:18).
Go over Rom 5 once more and stop adding your own definitions to the text, read it for what it says and then compare it to the rest of scripture, if your conclusions don't add up look for another. You also still haven't responded to my other verses in Psalm 58:3-4 and Luke 1:15 that contrast those who are born saved and those who are born unsaved. Thanks.
). It's different for children. So then at what age does Original Sin kick in? He tells me after 12, is when you need Jesus. He claims this to be biblically supported. Disappointingly (but not surprisingly), he wasn't able to tell me where in the bible this was.
