The Doctrine of Hell

[Jester]

It came up in another topic that Christians are varied in our descriptions of Hell. I thought that this would make an excellent point of discussion. For the sake of clarity, here are the questions for discussion.

1. How literal are the descriptions of Hell in the Bible?
(a). If they are basically literal, what can we infer about the nature of Heaven, Hell and God as Christianity describes it?
(b). If they are basically figurative, what is their purpose in being included in the Bible and, again, what can we infer about the nature of Heaven, Hell and God?

2. What is the nature of Hell?/What makes Hell so bad? (i.e. physical torture, psychological torture, separation from God, etc.)

3. How does one avoid hell? That is to say, how does one receive forgiveness from God, and why is that necessary for forgiveness?

[achilles12604]

A longer leash does not equal "free will". We may have the illusion of "free will" until we do something "God" doesn't want us to do. Thinking we have it, and having it, are very different things. "Salvation" and "Damnation" are incompatible with the concept of "free will". We are not free if we cannot deny a god with total impunity.

I think you and I are using slightly different definitions of the term free will. I mean it as the ability to make choices for one's self (i.e. a lack of mind-control). So far as I can perceive, you seem to mean it as having both the ability to make choices, and be free of the consequences of said choices.

Personally, I think "free will" must be as unconditional as "love". How can a creator grant absolute and unconditional free will to any intellect that evolves into being? By not interfering with the universe from the moment it's created or set in motion. This is the one instance when I can conceive of intelligent design of the universe, but it's hardly related to any notion of "god" as it's commonly understood. Creating a Hell or devising a second death to those who disagree with its point of view is just a bit too much interference for me. And nowhere near "free will". Suppose there were so many commandments and "instructions" that, theoretically, you couldn't do basically anything without going to Hell or disappearing. When does Humanity cease to have "free will", in your opinion?

This is a good point. But it only holds true so long as the laws are a requirement. If grace is introduced, then there really only becomes one determining factor; how God reads that person's heart. And this is closely tied with free will itself because our actions directly affect the condition of our heart.

If the only measure for heaven or hell is in fact a simple reading of the accumulation of our hearts, then free will can easily exist as each person is uniquely eclectic in this regard.

Moreover, I believe that salvation is entirely compatable with the concept of free will, even by your definition (as I understand it).

Not by my definition. It must be unconditional or it's just a measure of control.

Again I disagree. It is not a measure of control. It is a measure of consequence.
Consequence does not equate to control or else crime would not exist. These are to very different ideas. Linked, but unique.

Quite specifically, Christian salvation is based on the idea of humans being freed of the consequences of choices God dislikes.

Well, the first choice this god disliked wasn't exactly fair, or do you think Adam and Eve should've known disobeying Yahweh was wrong before eating from the tree of knowledge between good and evil? Talk about entrapment...

I read most of Genesis as metaphorical rather than literal so this doesn't really apply for me to answer.

[Beto]

Quite specifically, Christian salvation is based on the idea of humans being freed of the consequences of choices God dislikes.

Well, the first choice this god disliked wasn't exactly fair, or do you think Adam and Eve should've known disobeying Yahweh was wrong before eating from the tree of knowledge between good and evil? Talk about entrapment...

I read most of Genesis as metaphorical rather than literal so this doesn't really apply for me to answer.

Ok, so the "original sin" is a metaphor... If "sin" wasn't "born" from "disobedience" in the garden, it's part of human nature. Do you agree?

[achilles12604]

Quite specifically, Christian salvation is based on the idea of humans being freed of the consequences of choices God dislikes.

Well, the first choice this god disliked wasn't exactly fair, or do you think Adam and Eve should've known disobeying Yahweh was wrong before eating from the tree of knowledge between good and evil? Talk about entrapment...

I read most of Genesis as metaphorical rather than literal so this doesn't really apply for me to answer.

Ok, so the "original sin" is a metaphor... If "sin" wasn't "born" from "disobedience" in the garden, it's part of human nature. Do you agree?

I agree that sin is part of human nature. Having free will, some will choose to use it for what they perceive as gain, which usually results in sin.

[Beto]

Quite specifically, Christian salvation is based on the idea of humans being freed of the consequences of choices God dislikes.

Well, the first choice this god disliked wasn't exactly fair, or do you think Adam and Eve should've known disobeying Yahweh was wrong before eating from the tree of knowledge between good and evil? Talk about entrapment...

I read most of Genesis as metaphorical rather than literal so this doesn't really apply for me to answer.

Ok, so the "original sin" is a metaphor... If "sin" wasn't "born" from "disobedience" in the garden, it's part of human nature. Do you agree?

I agree that sin is part of human nature. Having free will, some will choose to use it for what they perceive as gain, which usually results in sin.

... which is human nature. This simply does not compute. A god that doesn't like sin, creates Man with a nature that's pretty much "hardwired" to sin, so Man can have free will. But that doesn't guarantee anything, so this god creates a Heaven and a Hell to "convince" people to use their "free will" the way this god wants them to.

Does all this really make sense to you?

[achilles12604]

Quite specifically, Christian salvation is based on the idea of humans being freed of the consequences of choices God dislikes.

Well, the first choice this god disliked wasn't exactly fair, or do you think Adam and Eve should've known disobeying Yahweh was wrong before eating from the tree of knowledge between good and evil? Talk about entrapment...

I read most of Genesis as metaphorical rather than literal so this doesn't really apply for me to answer.

Ok, so the "original sin" is a metaphor... If "sin" wasn't "born" from "disobedience" in the garden, it's part of human nature. Do you agree?

I agree that sin is part of human nature. Having free will, some will choose to use it for what they perceive as gain, which usually results in sin.

... which is human nature. This simply does not compute. A god that doesn't like sin, creates Man with a nature that's pretty much "hardwired" to sin, so Man can have free will. But that doesn't guarantee anything, so this god creates a Heaven and a Hell to "convince" people to use their "free will" the way this god wants them to.

Does all this really make sense to you?

Lol. I actually figured that this is where you would go with this.

I don't think God had another option. I have another thread going about this very thing.

I make one assumption but I do so after consideration of both logic and scripture and that is that creation's purpose is to produce creatures who will choose to voluntarily love God.

Now, for this to be accomplished, these creatures must also have the option of refusing God. Without this option the goal of choosing to love is equally impossible. Enter free will and my answer to your quandary. If a creature has the ability to sin, inevitably sometimes it will. To create people who only want to do good things, has in effect negated any other option and thus their free will. I believe that this is what was meant in Isaiah when God through Isaiah wrote "I have created evil". Without evil as an option, we can not choose good.

Thus the choice is ours. God gives us direction. He gives us conscience. But the choice is ours.


You may enjoy debating God's job description. I am having almost the same conversation with Metatron.

[Jester]

Personally, I think "free will" must be as unconditional as "love".

Agreed.

How can a creator grant absolute and unconditional free will to any intellect that evolves into being? By not interfering with the universe from the moment it's created or set in motion.

I disagree with this one. I don't see how being completely uninvolved in a person's life is required for free will. I believe that my friends are very good at allowing me to make my own choices, even though they have not abandoned me.

Creating a Hell or devising a second death to those who disagree with its point of view is just a bit too much interference for me.

The way in which God "created" hell is by allowing people to remove themselves from his presence entirely if they so desired. That seems to be a support of free will, rather than an affront to it.

Suppose there were so many commandments and "instructions" that, theoretically, you couldn't do basically anything without going to Hell or disappearing. When does Humanity cease to have "free will", in your opinion?

We lose free will when God starts using mind control. This is because there is a difference between consequenses and loss of will. We still have a choice, even if we don't like the choices. The only way in which we might have free will as you have suggested (being able to completely abandon God, yet be immune to the consequences of abandoning God) is if we were actually granted omnipotence. That would be a matter of personal power, not personal choice.

Moreover, I believe that salvation is entirely compatable with the concept of free will, even by your definition (as I understand it).

Not by my definition. It must be unconditional or it's just a measure of control.

Unconditional ability to decide doesn't mean that one is necesarilly going to like the options.

Quite specifically, Christian salvation is based on the idea of humans being freed of the consequences of choices God dislikes.

Well, the first choice this god disliked wasn't exactly fair, or do you think Adam and Eve should've known disobeying Yahweh was wrong before eating from the tree of knowledge between good and evil? Talk about entrapment...

I can see your concern here, though I would point out that God did warn them not to eat the apple. Of course they didn't know exactly what would happen, but they did know that he was smart enough to know what he was talking about, and chose to trust a serpent over him. They had enough information to know that this was a bad idea.

In any case, I don't know what would be fair. Every human is imperfect in his or her ethics. I'd go so far as to say that each of us are notably less good than we like to think. God allows us to come live with him anyway, if we choose to do so. Else, we fend for ourselves (which, like eating the apple, God says is a bad idea). I think that this is a great deal more than fair in that he's offering the perfect reward to imperfect people if we want it, and doesn't even make us take it if we don't.

It would be completely fair of him to require a lot more than that if we wanted to get into heaven. Moreover, since he did make us and everything else, it wouldn't be unfair of him to refuse to give people free will. We never earned that to begin with. I believe that he does, but out of love, not fairness.

Hell is the state of being completely without God(...)He does not make it for us, nor does he punish us; that is done by ourselves and by demons

Where are these demons? Where do they come from? Did Yahweh create them?Where do they "live", if Hell isn't a real place? Why should I believe they are any more real than the tooth fairy?

This is the Doctrine forum, not the apologetics forum. I think that we can agree that the argument over whether or not the claims of the Bible are true is vast and off topic. We are merely discussing what we believe the correct interpretation of those claims to be.

To that end, demons were created as angels, and used their free will to reject God. He let them walk out and exist as they chose. This sort of living was not healthy, and you won't find a selfless or joyful one in the bunch. Like selfish people, they tend to have the belief that gaining a certain amount of control over others (through various forms of manipulation, most of it unpleasant enough to be called torture) will make them feel better about their own situation. People who are completely with God are inherently protected from these kind of attacks (by God, and by more "mundane" principals that come with this choice). Those who have completely rejected God have no such armor. Thus, the Bible calls their state of being "Hell" and describes it as a place of ultimate suffering.

[Alethes]

In Revelation, the lake of fire refers to the unquenchable fire of God's judgment which will occur in the future. It is the place where fire will bring to pass the ultimate destruction of the devil and his host
Revelation 20:10, 14 and 15: (KJV)

Verse 10 --- And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Verse 14 --- And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Verse 15 --- And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8 --- But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part of the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

In Revelation 20:14 above, the King James Version translated the Greek word ades as "hell"- but a better translation would be the word "gravedom" which is the continuing state of death, of being dead (refer to Acts 2:24-33 and Revelation 1:18)

Also, it is worth noting here that the Greek word gehenna is traditionally translated "hell" which is a word derived from "to hide, conceal, hidden" – however, it actually refers to the "valley of Hinnom" where people used to burn their fires to devils and false-gods but which King Josiah destroyed and the valley was later used to burn all that was against God (refer to Joshua 15:8; 2 Kings 23:10; 2 Chronicles 28:3; Isaiah 30:3; Isaiah 30:27-33; Jeremiah 7:31 and 32). During Jesus' time this valley was used to burn Jerusalem's refuse/trash and these fires were continuously burning. Jesus used it symbolically, for example in Matthew 23:15 and 33, to refer to the unquenchable fire of God's judgment, including the lake of fire.

The King James Version phrase "for ever and ever" in Revelation 20:10 above would be better translated as "into the ages of the ages" - this does not mean that what is put into the lake of fire will continue to live (exist) forever without any end - but it means that they will never escape from the lake of fire. The life (existence) of those put into this lake of fire will be limited to the length of time from entry until they will be burned completely, destroyed, exterminated, reduced to ashes.

Malachi 4:1 says that the wicked will be burned up and be no more.

Ezekiel 28:18 foretold this destruction by fire that would bring satan "to ashes."

God has not prepared an eternal torture chamber for the wicked. Those who reject the Lord Jesus Christ will receive the second/final death. "For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" - Romans 6:23. They rejected the gift of "eternal life."

[achilles12604]

In Revelation, the lake of fire refers to the unquenchable fire of God's judgment which will occur in the future. It is the place where fire will bring to pass the ultimate destruction of the devil and his host
Revelation 20:10, 14 and 15: (KJV)

Verse 10 --- And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Verse 14 --- And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Verse 15 --- And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8 --- But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part of the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

In Revelation 20:14 above, the King James Version translated the Greek word ades as "hell"- but a better translation would be the word "gravedom" which is the continuing state of death, of being dead (refer to Acts 2:24-33 and Revelation 1:18)

Also, it is worth noting here that the Greek word gehenna is traditionally translated "hell" which is a word derived from "to hide, conceal, hidden" – however, it actually refers to the "valley of Hinnom" where people used to burn their fires to devils and false-gods but which King Josiah destroyed and the valley was later used to burn all that was against God (refer to Joshua 15:8; 2 Kings 23:10; 2 Chronicles 28:3; Isaiah 30:3; Isaiah 30:27-33; Jeremiah 7:31 and 32). During Jesus' time this valley was used to burn Jerusalem's refuse/trash and these fires were continuously burning. Jesus used it symbolically, for example in Matthew 23:15 and 33, to refer to the unquenchable fire of God's judgment, including the lake of fire.

The King James Version phrase "for ever and ever" in Revelation 20:10 above would be better translated as "into the ages of the ages" - this does not mean that what is put into the lake of fire will continue to live (exist) forever without any end - but it means that they will never escape from the lake of fire. The life (existence) of those put into this lake of fire will be limited to the length of time from entry until they will be burned completely, destroyed, exterminated, reduced to ashes.

Malachi 4:1 says that the wicked will be burned up and be no more.

Ezekiel 28:18 foretold this destruction by fire that would bring satan "to ashes."

God has not prepared an eternal torture chamber for the wicked. Those who reject the Lord Jesus Christ will receive the second/final death. "For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" - Romans 6:23. They rejected the gift of "eternal life."

When and by whom was revelations written?

Why should I accept it?

[Alethes]

In Revelation, the lake of fire refers to the unquenchable fire of God's judgment which will occur in the future. It is the place where fire will bring to pass the ultimate destruction of the devil and his host
Revelation 20:10, 14 and 15: (KJV)

Verse 10 --- And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Verse 14 --- And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Verse 15 --- And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8 --- But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part of the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

In Revelation 20:14 above, the King James Version translated the Greek word ades as "hell"- but a better translation would be the word "gravedom" which is the continuing state of death, of being dead (refer to Acts 2:24-33 and Revelation 1:18)

Also, it is worth noting here that the Greek word gehenna is traditionally translated "hell" which is a word derived from "to hide, conceal, hidden" – however, it actually refers to the "valley of Hinnom" where people used to burn their fires to devils and false-gods but which King Josiah destroyed and the valley was later used to burn all that was against God (refer to Joshua 15:8; 2 Kings 23:10; 2 Chronicles 28:3; Isaiah 30:3; Isaiah 30:27-33; Jeremiah 7:31 and 32). During Jesus' time this valley was used to burn Jerusalem's refuse/trash and these fires were continuously burning. Jesus used it symbolically, for example in Matthew 23:15 and 33, to refer to the unquenchable fire of God's judgment, including the lake of fire.

The King James Version phrase "for ever and ever" in Revelation 20:10 above would be better translated as "into the ages of the ages" - this does not mean that what is put into the lake of fire will continue to live (exist) forever without any end - but it means that they will never escape from the lake of fire. The life (existence) of those put into this lake of fire will be limited to the length of time from entry until they will be burned completely, destroyed, exterminated, reduced to ashes.

Malachi 4:1 says that the wicked will be burned up and be no more.

Ezekiel 28:18 foretold this destruction by fire that would bring satan "to ashes."

God has not prepared an eternal torture chamber for the wicked. Those who reject the Lord Jesus Christ will receive the second/final death. "For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" - Romans 6:23. They rejected the gift of "eternal life."

When and by whom was revelations written?

Why should I accept it?

When and by whom? Don't you know? Why shouldn't you accept it?

[achilles12604]

In Revelation, the lake of fire refers to the unquenchable fire of God's judgment which will occur in the future. It is the place where fire will bring to pass the ultimate destruction of the devil and his host
Revelation 20:10, 14 and 15: (KJV)

Verse 10 --- And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Verse 14 --- And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Verse 15 --- And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8 --- But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part of the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

In Revelation 20:14 above, the King James Version translated the Greek word ades as "hell"- but a better translation would be the word "gravedom" which is the continuing state of death, of being dead (refer to Acts 2:24-33 and Revelation 1:18)

Also, it is worth noting here that the Greek word gehenna is traditionally translated "hell" which is a word derived from "to hide, conceal, hidden" – however, it actually refers to the "valley of Hinnom" where people used to burn their fires to devils and false-gods but which King Josiah destroyed and the valley was later used to burn all that was against God (refer to Joshua 15:8; 2 Kings 23:10; 2 Chronicles 28:3; Isaiah 30:3; Isaiah 30:27-33; Jeremiah 7:31 and 32). During Jesus' time this valley was used to burn Jerusalem's refuse/trash and these fires were continuously burning. Jesus used it symbolically, for example in Matthew 23:15 and 33, to refer to the unquenchable fire of God's judgment, including the lake of fire.

The King James Version phrase "for ever and ever" in Revelation 20:10 above would be better translated as "into the ages of the ages" - this does not mean that what is put into the lake of fire will continue to live (exist) forever without any end - but it means that they will never escape from the lake of fire. The life (existence) of those put into this lake of fire will be limited to the length of time from entry until they will be burned completely, destroyed, exterminated, reduced to ashes.

Malachi 4:1 says that the wicked will be burned up and be no more.

Ezekiel 28:18 foretold this destruction by fire that would bring satan "to ashes."

God has not prepared an eternal torture chamber for the wicked. Those who reject the Lord Jesus Christ will receive the second/final death. "For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" - Romans 6:23. They rejected the gift of "eternal life."

When and by whom was revelations written?

Why should I accept it?

When and by whom?

Right. When and by whom?

Don't you know?

No. Please enlighten me.

Why shouldn't you accept it?

1) Because it is totally anonymous The church doesn't even have a tradition concerning this book that I am aware of.

2) Because this book is written twice in two different ways.

3) Because this book is written in 100% apocolyptic style and is therefore 100% open to personal interpretation.

4) Because even the church isn't united or convinced as to the "meaning" of this book.