Exodus - how can this be?

[Rose2020]

I am reading Exodus, about Moses.

I am having great trouble with reconciling the God of love, life and goodness with the events in chapter 32.

How can this be - our God, Father, Creator, ordering violence and murder?

Please someone explain to me. Did God really speak to Moses with the commands in verses 27- 29?

[theophile]

[Replying to theophile in post #38]

You are a contradiction, theist and apologist.

You word your definition of the Bible in terms to show you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God.

All the Words in the Bible are the Word of God. Not just the ones you want to claim.

You speak 'blasphemy' when you speak of 'the beauty and trick of the Bible'. You treat God's Word as a trick. Good luck.

The Words of God in the Bible, all words written in the Bible, are true. The God of the Bible is God, the only God. The history recorded in the Bible is true history.

You don't know what you believe.

Rip

I'm pretty sure I know what I believe. It's just not what you believe. And believe me, there is no contradiction in what I said. It only contradicts with what you said. And pardon me, but I'm not sure what makes you the arbiter of truth on such matters, that we should all just jump on your bandwagon and agree.

So please, stop with the judgments unless they actually address my arguments or points, which currently they do not. All you are doing is judging me based on your own preconceptions. And regurgitating the same points again and again without any evidence, e.g., "the history recorded in the bible is true." A point which I'm pretty sure half of this board would argue vehemently against and has obvious conflicts with known history.

But look, I get it. I'm pushing a kind of theism and biblical interpretation that is radically different from your own. There is no argument there. And one would hope there is room in this world for such fresh thinking, versus the same-old-story that grounds your beliefs.

[theophile]

[Replying to theophile in post #35]
The point against you is that you cast doubt upon the Bible as the Word of God which is what I said in the first place. The point against you is you don't know what is the Word of God and what isn't...cause....according to you it's all just stories. You don't even know if Jesus really existed as a real Person.

Yet, by your own words, you're a 'theist' and an 'apologist'. Which means nothing, as you can see.

Rip

I do not doubt that the words of God in the bible are the word of God, or that the bible itself reveals the true God. I will defend every last word from God from first to last, as well as the God that stands behind them.

What I doubt is the words that men speak in the bible...

This is an oxymoron.

The Bible is the truth but it was written by men so it's not the truth.

If you doubt them then who do you trust? Are you one of those of many that claim to hear the word of God at night or whatever?

That is not what I said. This has nothing to do with who wrote the bible. It's about who's speaking in the bible (like any other book that has different characters who speak, and only one of whom is God...).

What I said is that I don't necessarily trust the parts where men are speaking. By which I mean specifically the quotations in the bible that are from men, not God. You know, the various parts in the bible where Moses speaks, or Joshua speaks, or someone else speaks, versus all the parts where it is actually God who is speaking. (Which are pretty clear to tell apart...)

You all keep saying that every word in the bible is the word of God. I say it is only the words that God speaks in the bible that are the word of God (which sounds pretty reasonable, no?). Like in Genesis 1:3 when God says "Let there be light". Or God's speeches in Job 38-41... These are undeniable examples in the bible of the word of God.

And again, I'm not saying that all the words spoken by men in the bible are false, but only that they aren't necessarily the word of God, and often aren't. Which means we have to be mindful, that's all.

Sticking with the book of Job as a classic example, God tells us this himself in 42:7 when it comes to the words of Job's friends: "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has."

This means that the words spoken by the friends, which cover multiple chapters of text in the bible, are false. Nothing could be clearer from such a statement from God, and yet not uncommon to see their words cited as the word of God! No different from Moses' words in Exodus 32:27, which are also clearly false.

So how do you reconcile such facts in the bible with your simplistic view that 'every word in the bible is true'?

They don't reconcile. That is my point.

[2timothy316]

You all keep saying that every word in the bible is the word of God.

It is all God's Word. They are all the accounts that God wants us to know. For example, When Gehzi lied to Elisha as where he had been in 2 Kings 5:25, even though what that man said was a lie we can trust this account as true because it is God's word. There really was a man named Gehazi, a man named Elisha and the lie that was told did happen. Gehazi being stuck with leprosy did happen too. The whole Bible can be looked at as God's Word and He wants to know it all.

[RIP]

[Replying to theophile in post #41]

The contradiction is you present yourself as some sort of Christian through your avatar and some things you say. But then you deny the Bible is the Word of God. You don't know if there was a real Jesus Christ. You treat that which is recorded in the Bible as just stories, not true history.

You pose as a 'theist' and 'apologist', which is not synonymous with being Christian. So, are you Christian? Or are you trying to pose as a Christian? How can one be Christian and not know if Jesus Christ was/is the only begotten Son of God and Saviour? Makes no sense.

Your fresh thinkiing, as you like to call it, is contrary to the Scriptures. Contrary to God who is the Author of the Bible. Contrary to Jesus Christ.

Rip

[theophile]

You all keep saying that every word in the bible is the word of God.

It is all God's Word. They are all the accounts that God wants us to know. For example, When Gehzi lied to Elisha as where he had been in 2 Kings 5:25, even though what that man said was a lie we can trust this account as true because it is God's word. There really was a man named Gehazi, a man named Elisha and the lie that was told did happen. Gehazi being stuck with leprosy did happen too. The whole Bible can be looked at as God's Word and He wants to know it all.

Okay, so you agree with me then that the words of Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar in the book of Job are false (that they speak falsely of God as God says). But you insist that their words are true insofar as they were actually spoken by real people to a real person named Job a few thousand years ago... That we should take God's word on that (as if God said somewhere that these events actually happened ).

My point here is the same as I said to Rip earlier. i.e., What is more important? That the words are true of God / the true word of God, or that they have historical accuracy?

To me it is way more important that the words be true of God or are the true word of God. Historical accuracy should not be necessary for us to accept them, but rather, the word of God should stand above such things as the historical accuracy of any text that conveys it. (Frankly, the word of God should stand above history and all texts whatsoever whether historical or not.)

In making the move that you do, I would suggest you are dangerously close to making an idol of history, or even of the bible.

[theophile]

[Replying to theophile in post #41]

The contradiction is you present yourself as some sort of Christian through your avatar and some things you say. But then you deny the Bible is the Word of God. You don't know if there was a real Jesus Christ. You treat that which is recorded in the Bible as just stories, not true history.

You pose as a 'theist' and 'apologist', which is not synonymous with being Christian. So, are you Christian? Or are you trying to pose as a Christian? How can one be Christian and not know if Jesus Christ was/is the only begotten Son of God and Saviour? Makes no sense.

Your fresh thinkiing, as you like to call it, is contrary to the Scriptures. Contrary to God who is the Author of the Bible. Contrary to Jesus Christ.

Rip

I've said that I believe the bible contains the word of God and reveals the true God. You just don't like my views because I don't take the bible literally. Do I believe it is all inspired by God or in the spirit of God? Absolutely. But that still doesn't mean it's historical fact...

Do I believe in Christ as savior? Yes I do. I also believe that Christ is the light. But neither of these beliefs necessitate that a human being named Jesus did everything described in the gospels. Just as it doesn't necessitate the mental gymnastics of somehow equating a human being with physical light.

Again, the word of God is bigger than the bible. It stands above history even and is not impugned in any way by the historical inaccuracy of the texts conveying it. The same is true of Christ. Christ is bigger than a single human being or the details relating to that person in the gospels, and doesn't stand or fall based on the history.

So I'm sorry you can't get your head around that. But if that means I'm not a Christian, then I guess I'm not a Christian (I never claimed to be such - it's technically an ankh in my avatar, not a cross...).

But you should really ask yourself why your faith demands such historical underpinnings. Or why the texts must be true in a historical sense.

Is your faith in God so weak that it would fail if the bible turned out to be historically false? Mine isn't.

[otseng]

[Replying to theophile in post #41]

The contradiction is you present yourself as some sort of Christian through your avatar and some things you say. But then you deny the Bible is the Word of God. You don't know if there was a real Jesus Christ. You treat that which is recorded in the Bible as just stories, not true history.

You pose as a 'theist' and 'apologist', which is not synonymous with being Christian. So, are you Christian? Or are you trying to pose as a Christian? How can one be Christian and not know if Jesus Christ was/is the only begotten Son of God and Saviour? Makes no sense.

Your fresh thinkiing, as you like to call it, is contrary to the Scriptures. Contrary to God who is the Author of the Bible. Contrary to Jesus Christ.

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[Diogenes]

The contradiction is you present yourself as some sort of Christian through your avatar and some things you say. But then you deny the Bible is the Word of God. You don't know if there was a real Jesus Christ. You treat that which is recorded in the Bible as just stories, not true history.

You pose as a 'theist' and 'apologist', which is not synonymous with being Christian. So, are you Christian? Or are you trying to pose as a Christian? How can one be Christian and not know if Jesus Christ was/is the only begotten Son of God and Saviour? Makes no sense.

Your fresh thinkiing, as you like to call it, is contrary to the Scriptures. Contrary to God who is the Author of the Bible. Contrary to Jesus Christ.

This post claims to speak for Christ himself, just as Paul did, and Peter. They contradicted each other, just as the passage, Exodus 32:27 contradicts the many times when Jesus preached about not judging others* and forgiving others, even when they have committed great sins#. The simplistic/absolutist approach always declares each verse to be the "Word of God" even tho' those words contradict other verses that also are claimed to be the "Word of God."

In using this autocratic, absolutist approach the writer declares that he and he alone understand the "Word of God." This is blasphemy, a blasphemy that is not cured by declaring "I am a Christian." What it really does is expose the unjustified pride of anyone who claims his own words are the absolute authority on scripture.

Instead, one could ask themselves "Why are there so many different books in the Christian canon? Why do passages appear to contradict themselves or paint such different and contrasting images of God?

... or, one could take the approach recommended by Difflugia in post #10:

Now switch gears and imagine that Exodus 32 was written to you by a person. The story is perhaps of a real civil war between two factions and the author is seeking religious meaning in the violence and slaughter.

___________________
*Matthew 7:1-2
#John 7-8

[RIP]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #48]

Please only debate the topic and do not make any personal comments.

Please review the rules.

Rip

[RIP]

[Replying to theophile in post #46]

Again, you are a contradiction. The Bible does not 'contain' the Word of God. The Bible 'is' the Word of God. I don't like your views because they are heretical.

If Adam is not historical fact neither you or anyone else has any salvation. You say you believe as Christ as Saviour. Again. Was Christ a real Person? Did He move in the historical time as the Bible presents? If He didn't how can He be the Only Begotten Son of God and Saviour.

Christ is not the 'physical light'. Christ was a real Person and was the very 'light of God'. Big difference. The physical light is a light needed due to the absence of the real light of God. The sun is a substituionary light. Jesus Christ is the Light of God.

Ok. There you have it. You are not Christian. Thanks for the confession. But it was no great revelation.

Your faith, which is not in the God of the Bible, needs the Bible to be historically false. Which is why you post what you do. Your faith is based upon your view only of Christ and the Bible. A Christ that may not have existed. A Bible that can't be trusted to be accurate. A facade.

My faith is in the Person of Jesus Christ, the Only begotten Son of God and Saviour. Just as the Bible describes Him to be. It doesn't require 'mental gymnastics'. It does require faith in the historical record as presented in the Bible. And it will not be proved to be false.

I suppose I should be banned for standing up to such heresy as you and others present. You want the easy road. And I don't provide it for you. Better ban me. Yall are like the training of fighting dogs. You muzzle one to give the others confidence. That should tell you alot.

Rip