For debate:I, even I, am YHVH; and beside me there is no savior.
King James Version
What does this verse prove, Biblically?
Does it prove that Jesus is YHVH?
Or does it prove that YHVH, not Jesus, is the Savior?
What does this verse prove?
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Elijah John
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What does this verse prove?
Post #1What does this verse prove, Biblically?
Does it prove that Jesus is YHVH?
Or does it prove that YHVH, not Jesus, is the Savior?
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
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2timothy316
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Post #41
I agree. As far as we know, sperm might not have even been needed. Jehovah could have had His half of the material form in the egg.postroad wrote: [Replying to post 38 by 2timothy316]
I believe a second set of chromosomes is required to fertilize an egg. Even if that second set is divinely created they must be combined with the egg in order that a human being can be born.
Post #42
[Replying to post 40 by 2timothy316]
In the end it was a spiritual and human union that resembled that which caused those Spiritual entities to come under condemnation. Why would God have imitated this in order to bring the Messiah into existence?
In the end it was a spiritual and human union that resembled that which caused those Spiritual entities to come under condemnation. Why would God have imitated this in order to bring the Messiah into existence?
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2timothy316
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Post #43
This is an excellent question!postroad wrote: [Replying to post 40 by 2timothy316]
In the end it was a spiritual and human union that resembled that which caused those Spiritual entities to come under condemnation. Why would God have imitated this in order to bring the Messiah into existence?
The direct answer is, "For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive." - 1 Cor 15:21, 22
Jesus had to be a man. Not an angel, not some angel-man hybrid. Not just any man, a perfect bodied man. Adam was given a body free from sin but gave it up. Jesus too had a perfect body free from sin but kept it. Jesus was correcting what Adam put askew.
Post #44
[Replying to post 42 by 2timothy316]
How can you say that death came through Adam when Adam was created mortal?
The fact that they were instructed and created able to reproduce makes it self evident that they were not ever eternal beings. If their earthly bodies could have been compromised then their descendants could surely be sanctified in the flesh in order to be eternal bodies. And if that is not possible then Satan's power is greater than God's.
Bad enough that he could compromise instantly the whole of mankind while Christianity claims sanctification is personal and gradual and can only be completed outside the flesh.
how is it that all of humanity could be involuntarily cursed in the body of Adam but only a small elect from humanity will be saved in Christ?
How can you say that death came through Adam when Adam was created mortal?
The fact that they were instructed and created able to reproduce makes it self evident that they were not ever eternal beings. If their earthly bodies could have been compromised then their descendants could surely be sanctified in the flesh in order to be eternal bodies. And if that is not possible then Satan's power is greater than God's.
Bad enough that he could compromise instantly the whole of mankind while Christianity claims sanctification is personal and gradual and can only be completed outside the flesh.
how is it that all of humanity could be involuntarily cursed in the body of Adam but only a small elect from humanity will be saved in Christ?
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2timothy316
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Post #45
Wait, 'how can I say'? I didn't say it. I quoted the Bible. Do you disagree with the Bible? Did Jehovah create Adam to die? Only to have His Son die for a death He wanted? How does that make any sense?postroad wrote: [Replying to post 42 by 2timothy316]
How can you say that death came through Adam when Adam was created mortal?
Post #46
[Replying to post 44 by 2timothy316]
I'm not a believer. I simply cross examine the textual concepts. I am constantly informed that some text I've quoted does not really mean what is transmitted by the words in it.
I'm not a believer. I simply cross examine the textual concepts. I am constantly informed that some text I've quoted does not really mean what is transmitted by the words in it.
Post #47
[Replying to post 44 by 2timothy316]
This text clearly indicates that people will live glorified but still mortal existences after the renewal of all things. But I'm sure you will not believe it. I have noticed the term "don't you believe the Bible " is used a lot by a certain group that walks door to door in pairs. Do they teach you that technique?
Isaiah 65:17-25 New International Version (NIV)
New Heavens and a New Earth
17 “See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 “Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach[a] a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the work of their hands.
23 They will not labor in vain,
nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the Lord,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
and dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,�
says the Lord.
This text clearly indicates that people will live glorified but still mortal existences after the renewal of all things. But I'm sure you will not believe it. I have noticed the term "don't you believe the Bible " is used a lot by a certain group that walks door to door in pairs. Do they teach you that technique?
Isaiah 65:17-25 New International Version (NIV)
New Heavens and a New Earth
17 “See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 “Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach[a] a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the work of their hands.
23 They will not labor in vain,
nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the Lord,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
and dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,�
says the Lord.
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Tcg
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Post #48
Assuming Adam did indeed die, there are only two options:
1. Jehovah created Adam to die.
2. Jehovah is impotent and events outside of his control happen.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
Post #49
[Replying to post 44 by 2timothy316]
It seems to have been predetermined.
Acts 4:27-28 New International Version (NIV)
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
It seems to have been predetermined.
Acts 4:27-28 New International Version (NIV)
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
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brianbbs67
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Post #50
Tcg wrote:Assuming Adam did indeed die, there are only two options:
1. Jehovah created Adam to die.
2. Jehovah is impotent and events outside of his control happen.
Tcg
That doesn't follow the scripture. God instructed Adam to eat of every plant and tree except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. There was no time limit placed on man's existence in early Genesis. That came much later. Adam was told he would die if he ate of that tree. He let Eve try it and when she didn't die, he tried it too. The rest of the story followed exactly what God said. Adam chose to die by thinking God wouldn't really let him and by thinking it would come immediately, not gradually over 900 years.
