Illegal Immigration Pt. 2

[The Persnickety Platypus]

I just have to bring this back up.

A sequel to the former topic:



Is erecting a fence across the southern border a horrible policy? Yes or yes?

Is it reasonable to demand thousands of dollars in naturalization fees from migrants fleeing $80 work weeks? No or no?

[The Persnickety Platypus]

The globe is not level: one of the big criticisms of globalisation today is that money tends to accumulate in resource-rich areas and drain away from resource-poor ones. What place would Haiti, for example, have in the global economy? They are located on a Caribbean island and are therefore not exactly the most resource-rich area on the planet. They would be providing largely unskilled labour, the fruits of which would gather where the biggest banks and biggest corporation heads are.

In an age of burgeoning technology, natural resources are quickly becomming an obsolete commodity. Today, people in malnourished regions of the earth have the ability to conduct fruitful international businesses from the confines of their home computer.

If developed regions of the Earth would help jumpstart education in places like Haiti, resources will create themselves. There is a limit to the amount of manual labor needed in an economy. However, there is no limit to prospective white collar jobs. Thousands of profitable markets have yet to be tapped. In the future, the robot or rocket pack industries may dominate the economy. The opportunities are endless, and are limited only by the scope of our innovation.

Like you said, strife happens in areas which don't have resources. And the way it's working right now, globalisation really isn't helping at all.

Sure, it's not bringing about immediate worldwide equality, but in many areas it has helped where aid and redistribution could not. Look at East Asia.

Right now the global market is a jungle. Most companies and entrepreaneurs are working solely in their own interests.

Properly planned/regulated globalization however (such as my idea with Mexico) may prove to be our world's saving grace.

Except that it's easier said than done. Naturalising the immigrants that are already here I can see as being helpful and easy enough, but bringing jobs to unemployed domestic workers is difficult as it is.

Which is where education comes in. Schools need to be our top priority right now. Colleges should be completely state controlled, and function in the manner of a non-profit organization. We all know science funding is down. We all know China is creeping up on us. And yet, 400 billion of our tax dollars is being spent on military techno-crap. 60 billion of that goes to maintaining the largest nuclear arsenal on earth... apparently in case of a mass alien invasion.

My plan, in reality, has three seperate tiers. Naturalize the immigrants. Send jobs overseas. Invest in higher education on the home front.

It takes care of the immigrants that are here, keeps more from comming, and expands job opportunities for blue collar American workers. Ideally, we have more Americans creating and commoditizing products, and use the Mexicans to build and manufacture them.

Everyone wins.

[Cephus]

Begging your pardon, Cephus, but this is very far from what I was suggesting. I wasn't advocating a power play by the U.S. government to circumvent Mexico's authority over its own citizens (that seems to be what you think I was saying - correct me if I'm wrong). What I was advocating was an increase in foreign aid to Mexico. I'm no neocon; far from it - I'm a liberal internationalist. I agree with you that we shouldn't be in the business of telling other countries what to go do with themselves, but there is a difference between that and investing in aid for developing nations.

The problem is that just giving money to Mexico won't solve anything. This is how they are solving their own internal domestic problems, they're shipping their poor to the US. This whole move is approved and supported by Fox's government, a government that is printing maps and handing them to the poor and saying "you should go there, it's better for all of us". The only thing Mexico's government cares about are the wealthy, they not only expect the poor to get out of the way, they're telling them where to go.

Well, I won't disagree with you on the need to keep an eye on domestic issues. Just keep in mind that many of our domestic problems have foreign roots or foreign results. When GM left Flint for greener pastures, where did they go, for example?

GM and most US automakers got themselves into trouble with the massive union contracts they got conned into signing which made it impossible to keep doing business. That had nothing to do with foreign roots, it had to do purely with bad management.

[Cephus]

America has the goods. Now lets let Mexico have some.

They can have what they can legally obtain in their own country, with their own money. When they're in my country illegally, using taxpayer money that they are not entitled to, that's another story.

[Suzanne]

I just have to bring this back up.

A sequel to the former topic:



Is erecting a fence across the southern border a horrible policy? Yes or yes?

Is it reasonable to demand thousands of dollars in naturalization fees from migrants fleeing $80 work weeks? No or no?

I have not gone into many of the other threads so I thought I wouild come in and see what this one was..

AT LEAST I can have an opinion on this and be just like everybody else have MY OWN opinion on the subject.. OF course with RELIGIOUS BELIEFS all are supposed to be able to have that FREEDOM ALSO. yet the only real freedom OF RELIGION is BY FAITH IN ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, and ONE BAPTISM. Sorry this is about Immigration and the fence .

Immigration=== Well truth is we all are immigrants to this land. every tongue and color.. Caucasion, Black, Red, Yellow, Olive, and a mixture from one two or more of these peoples that are NOT all that different from the other PEOPLE acceptr for colors and languages. and what ideas each have as an individual based on what Country and other land they came from or their parents or grandparents or their parents ...

ALL HAVE RED BLOOD AS far as I know. All have mouths to speak with and brains to think with and hearts to pump the blood that gives all of us the life we are now living and have. ALL HAVEING A TITLE AND NAME THAT IS GIVEN TO these people that are alike EXCEPT FOR our INDIVIDUAL AND CULTURAL DIFFERENCES ..

I CAN UNDERSTAND SCREENING the people coming into AMERICA, MAKING SURE they HAVE NO CONTRABAND or are CONVICTS THAT HAVE not yet served their JAIL TIME. I AM FOR ALLOWING those that want to COME HEE LIVE AND WORK PAY TAXES ON WHAT THEY EARN AND EVENTUALLY BECOME A CITIZEN OF AMERICA THAT BY ALL MEANS ... BUT there has to be REGULATIONS and RULES FOLLOWED. they are already IN PLACE BUT ARE NOT USED..Just like alot of the laws that are already written and are not kept having those responsible of giving PUNISHING those GUILTY they either have nothing being done at all or not having the PUNISHMENT fit the crime.

IF THIS LAD OF AMERICA cannot be what SHE IS HERE FOR and be a PLACE OF REFUGE FOR ALL THAT ARE being OPPRESSED and HELD BACK from ABUNDENT LIVING AND G HAPPINESS then LET AMERICA BE AMERICA!!!!!!!!! THE LAND OF THE FREE and HOME OF the FREE BEING A PEOPLE THAT is ONE PEOPLE UNDER GOD believers in HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON JESUS the RISEN CHRIST. IT DOES NOT mean that SOMEONE THAT COMES here FROM JAPAN CANNOT WORSHIP their BUDDAH!!!!!!! they most CERTAINLY CAN!!! AS LONG AS OIR WORSHIPING GOD ALMIGHTY AND belief IN HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON is NOT IMPEDED..

OTHERWISE LETS ALL GO BACK TO OUR ROOTS!!! AND the LAND WE HAVE come from. INITIALLY AND THAT being ALL PEOPLES MANKIND ALL GOIG BACK TO EDEN>>>> GOOD LUCK???? IN FINDING THAT GARDEN EVER AGAIN. IT NEVER WILL EXIST AGAIN BUT FOR AN INDIVIDUAL PERSON THAT HAS SOUGHT AND FOUND THE KINGDOM OF GOD and HAS ENTERED INTO tHAT CITY..

TRUTH IS IT TAKES A LIFETIME TO FIND IT and then when ONE does ... BECAUSE OF ALL THAT IS OUTSIDE OF IT. that IS NOT THAT EASY TO IGNORE. and KEEP AWAY FROM. IT CAN be done AND FEW MAKE IT and those that do. well The windows of heaven can be closed For a time and the gate to heaven avilable to all that want in.. THEN AND ONLY THEN CAN TRUE REAL peace BE FOUND. I have not made it to that city yet . BUT I HAVE EVERY ASSURANCE I will. IT IS JUST A MATTER OF TIME. another nice thing about that CITY is TIME IS NOT any longer that IMPORTANT .. for time is and can be NONE EXISTANT.. NOW who would not want to be in that city and enter HEAVEN .. NO DARKNESS, ONLY LIGHT, NO HATRED ONLY LOVE, NO REAL TOIL OR STRIFE, JUST PEACE AND TRANQUILITY. WORK THERE sure. do you really think that the LORDS KINGDOM will not need work to be done .. NO NOT JUST FLOATING ON A CLOUD ALL DAY. I AM SURE. Probably have plenty to have to do.. HAVE TO DIE TO GET THERE and we all WILL SOMEDAY... CANNOT AVOID THE PHYSICAL DEATH OF THIS VISABLE MATERIAL BODY ALL SEE. THE SPIRIT that is within is hardly ever SEEN KNOWN OR UNDERSTOOD. FOR ONLY THE FATHER IN HEAVEN KNOWS THE HEART OF MAN.. THAT IS WHAT is SEEN .. FOR THE BLOOD HAS GIVEN A ROBE OF WHITE. THAT is all the FATHER SEES.. THANK GOD FOR THE BLOOD!!!!!

REMEMBER ALL PEOPLE HAVE RED BLOOD.. BUT NOT ALL PEOPLE HAVE BEEN BAPTISED ............

[The Persnickety Platypus]

They can have what they can legally obtain in their own country, with their own money. When they're in my country illegally, using taxpayer money that they are not entitled to, that's another story.

But of course, if they had the opportunity to become naturalized tax paying citizens, then they would be fully entitled to such services, and everyone could go about their merry way.


But no, you are still hung up on your fence fantasies...

[Cephus]

But of course, if they had the opportunity to become naturalized tax paying citizens, then they would be fully entitled to such services, and everyone could go about their merry way.

And of course, they do have the opportunity but none of them even TRY to become naturalized citizens because they don't want to be citizens. Very few illegal aliens want to be Americans. They want to be Mexicans living on American soil, making American money.

What's even more ridiculous is that you seem to think that just wanting something gives you the right to take it. If I want a million dollars and can't earn it, do I then have a right to steal it, just because I want it?

And you talk about fantasies? Something tells me you're looking in the mirror.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

And of course, they do have the opportunity but none of them even TRY to become naturalized citizens because they don't want to be citizens.

Or maybe it is the thousands of dollars in fees and years of pointless tutoring that is shying them away. Just maybe.

Funny, there does not seem to be a sudden influx of illegal white collar Canadians. I suppose they just "want to be Americans"? Their highly expendable money and time have nothing to do with it?

Very few illegal aliens want to be Americans. They want to be Mexicans living on American soil, making American money.

So now patriotism is a naturalization requirement. Not only that, but one must abandon all cultural ties to his/her home country.

I guess that makes sense. I mean, we wouldn't want anything other than a mindless nationalistic drone entering our borders. Anyone else might (*gasp*) question our nation's policies. Or even worse..... not blend in. Too much cultural diversity might (as social conservatives well know) cause the nation to implode.



I don't consider myself an "American". Are the feds going to come deport me?

No, because believe it or not, I (just as the immigrating Mexicans) contribute a lot to this country, both economically and civicly. Amazingly, I have managed to accomplish this without centralizing my loyalties or bowing down and worshiping the flag.

Illegal aliens don't want to be Americans? Cool, neither do I. Does anyone honestly give a crap?

And you talk about fantasies? Something tells me you're looking in the mirror.

Strange, I haven't been getting that feeling.

You see, judging my the number of actual arguments you have made against my ideas (none), I had assumed they were downright utopian.

See a problem with my plan? Try me. I'm all ears.

(May not be online for the next few days, I'll answer when I get the chance)

[1John2_26]

So now patriotism is a naturalization requirement.

When hasn't it been? The hyphen is there for a reason. Italian-American. Irish-American. Cuban-American.

These Mexicans want to be Mexicans on American soil? There is a country for that patriotism. It is called Mexico.

Not only that, but one must abandon all cultural ties to his/her home country.

Italian-Americans. Irish-Americans. Cuban-Americans.

Better start questioning your history, social studies and political science teachers PP. They're wacked.

[MagusYanam]

Quote:
Except that it's easier said than done. Naturalising the immigrants that are already here I can see as being helpful and easy enough, but bringing jobs to unemployed domestic workers is difficult as it is.

Which is where education comes in. Schools need to be our top priority right now. Colleges should be completely state controlled, and function in the manner of a non-profit organization. We all know science funding is down. We all know China is creeping up on us. And yet, 400 billion of our tax dollars is being spent on military techno-crap. 60 billion of that goes to maintaining the largest nuclear arsenal on earth... apparently in case of a mass alien invasion.

My plan, in reality, has three seperate tiers. Naturalize the immigrants. Send jobs overseas. Invest in higher education on the home front.

It takes care of the immigrants that are here, keeps more from comming, and expands job opportunities for blue collar American workers. Ideally, we have more Americans creating and commoditizing products, and use the Mexicans to build and manufacture them.

Everyone wins.

I think this gets to the meat of your plan here.

I'm in full agreement with you that our educational system needs to adapt to the times. Making a federal college system (like our primary and secondary school systems) is a really great idea - all of the top universities in Europe and Asia (and top-notch they are, too, especially Beida) are top because they get state funding and all the good professors want to go there.

But I'd say that this change should even extend to primary and secondary schools, not just to higher education. (Largely because the people going to college won't be ending up in the unskilled labour market.) Right now, our primary and secondary schools are designed to churn out factory workers: people who know how to obey rules, pay attention to an authority figure and concentrate on a specific task. (The biggest culture shock I experienced in college was that one was expected to treat the professor like an equal and engage in discussion, not just listen and answer when called upon.) If we could make our high schools more like our colleges, we wouldn't have such massive undereducation and underemployment problems. We might practically eliminate the job competition I described earlier between foreign blue-collars and domestics.

Yes, I'd definitely agree to your plan, but only if you place the highest priority on your second and third tiers. It seems like the first kind of follows from them.

GM and most US automakers got themselves into trouble with the massive union contracts they got conned into signing which made it impossible to keep doing business. That had nothing to do with foreign roots, it had to do purely with bad management.

That wouldn't have been a problem if there weren't a foreign alternative to their union woes, which made a bad management decision a worse one (for the people of Flint, anyway).

When hasn't it been? The hyphen is there for a reason. Italian-American. Irish-American. Cuban-American.

These Mexicans want to be Mexicans on American soil? There is a country for that patriotism. It is called Mexico.

Wow, guess I'm going to be a ex-pat in Canada, eh?

[1John2_26]

1John2_26 wrote:
When hasn't it been? The hyphen is there for a reason. Italian-American. Irish-American. Cuban-American.

These Mexicans want to be Mexicans on American soil? There is a country for that patriotism. It is called Mexico.

Wow, guess I'm going to be a ex-pat in Canada, eh?

The honorable indignation that "the" American public has towards Mexicans, has nothing whatsoever to do with racism and everything to do with the fact that almost all of those Americans come from immigrant familes that were honorable in becoming citizens the right way.

I realize that "the right way" is horrifying terminolgy to a liberal, but not to normal, decent, average Americans.

BTW, No one in Canada is missed by Americans except maybe a few draft dodgers. Nothing would be better for America than liberals flooding over our northern borders to become Canadian citizens. They do have an awesome national athem, and it is sung in two languages. Though I don't know how spanish will make it sound as powerful.

Good luck eh!