Illegal Immigration

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Funny. It appears as if the unregulated free market embraced by today's religious right DOES have it's limitations.

When a greedy CEO decides to cut health care benefits for minimum wage workers in order to further engorge his profits, that's perfectly legit. But when a foreign laborer willing to work twice as hard for half the pay gets hired over you, THEN WE HAVE AN OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE!

I'm tired of all the capitalist pigs complaining about losing jobs to Hispanics. This is the form of society you have embraced. Now you get to deal with the competition it entails.




Here's an idea: force companies to pay all workers the same wages, and there is no incentive to hire the immigrant over your average blue collar worker. Problem solved.

Is it really this simple, or am I just missing something?

What is the purpose of the complex naturalization process? I always thought America was the land of opportunity. Suddenly it has become an exclusive membership club. We assert the joys of a free market all over the world, but wish to deny certain groups of people these same rights on the home front.

Another idea. Enter the borders- BAM, your a citizen. Screw the little aptitude tests.

Would this cause any signifigant economic backlashes? The workforce would be no more saturated than it all ready is, right? I'm asking you guys... I'm no economist.



Please share your ideas and solutions.

[juliod]

Nope. We should fix the currently broken naturalization process for people who want to become US citizens. People who just want to come here for a paycheck should continue to be barred from doing so.

But why? What benefit does the nation get by barring these potential workers? I'd say that moving someplace "for a paycheck" is the most "american" thing a person could do.

BTW, capitalism wants there to be a free flow of labor. That's why they are here. But it is their status as "illegal" that allows them to be exploitable. That results in a distortion to the market value of their labor and is animical to capitalism. Why don't we solve the right problem rather than the wrong one?

DanZ

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Further, it costs much more to the taxpayer than any potential savings. We have to educate them, pay for their health care, prosecute and house them in prisons, pay welfare to them, etc. In the end, the taxpayer loses but companies don't care, they don't have to directly pay the costs of their cheap labor.

The government is paying welfare and health care to people that, as far as the census bureu is aware, do not even exist?

How do undocumented workers cost us extra? And if they do, how could this extra amount in taxes possibly surpass the amount we save at the grocery store?

Chuck the illegals back across the border, I've got no problem paying a couple extra cents for a head of lettuce, which is exactly what costs would increase without them.

You would pay to see hard-working individuals striving to achieve a better life tossed back into poverty?

Astounding.

Nope. We should fix the currently broken naturalization process for people who want to become US citizens.

By opening it up to everyone and granting them the benefits we citizens enjoy.

People who just want to come here for a paycheck should continue to be barred from doing so.

Once again, I am speachless.

This statement might be comical if so many other narcissistic Americans did not hold the very same sentiment.

Move to Mexico for a bit. I am willing to bet that you will be soon to return. Why?

For a decent paycheck.

Years ago, California passed a law that stated that English is the official state language and everything official would only be done in that language. The liberal whiners sued and got that changed real quick.

Good for them.

[1John2_26]

Quote:
Pay them better, tax them, make them pay their own health care charges at the ER's where they go for Doctor's visits.

Then you agree with my plan- that we should legalize them rather than bar them from entering?

What are we even arguing over?

Is this all about them speaking Spanish? We should require them to adapt to an essential amount of English, I can accede to that. However, wiping out their cultural roots and coercing them into humble patriotic reverence, as you would have it, is unacceptable.

ON THIS ONE, we share some views.

But nationalism is NOT a bigot classification. To ask people that had to leave a worthless society for America, to respect America and American laws, is the sensible and rational thing to do. Becoming an American is still a good dream. But is becoming a nightmare for real Americans watching the socialist train coming toward their homes.

Mexicans should not be allowed to BE racists on American soil.

You come to a person's house you do not setup your own home there.

Our casa is NOT their casa. Their casa is a shack without running water, and we don't want ours becoming like Mexico.

If they want to "become Americans" then they should become Americans. That is not anything but decency. You walk into a Mexican store in Chicago and the store "owner" cannot and will not spaek to you in English. It is time for these "Americans" to get sued for racism. In english with a "translator" to educate them on "diversity and tolerance."

Other than that, California's higher-paid "workforce" is leaving in vast numbers. That new country is not a good place to live, unless moving from a shack in a third world countryt, to Section Eight housing is a great goal.

It isn't, unless you are a "soldier" in a Mexian gang.

New America is just around the socialist corner.

[Cephus]

But why? What benefit does the nation get by barring these potential workers? I'd say that moving someplace "for a paycheck" is the most "american" thing a person could do.

How about employing it's own people? What benefit does the nation get by spending more money on free health care, education and prison care than it saves by employing people who are here breaking the law in the first place?

BTW, capitalism wants there to be a free flow of labor. That's why they are here. But it is their status as "illegal" that allows them to be exploitable. That results in a distortion to the market value of their labor and is animical to capitalism. Why don't we solve the right problem rather than the wrong one?

Of course it does. If capitalism had it's way, it would want slavery back too. They want to maximize profits by cutting costs. What they're doing in the end is reducing their own costs but passing those costs on to the American taxpayer. Given a choice, capitalism would eliminate environmental and safety laws, the minimum wage, etc. It is patently stupid to listen to what "capitalism" wants when capitalism, unchecked, is wholly irresponsible.

[Cephus]

The government is paying welfare and health care to people that, as far as the census bureu is aware, do not even exist?

The federal Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) mandates that U.S. hospitals with emergency-room services must treat anyone who requires care, including illegal aliens. Medical service for Americans in affected communities is being severely damaged as hospitals absorb more than $200 million in unreimbursed costs. Some emergency rooms have shut down because they cannot afford to stay open. Local tax-paying Americans are either denied medical care or have to wait in long lines for service as the illegals flood the facilities. In California, the losses are calculated to be about $79 million, with $74 million in Texas, $31 million in Arizona, and $6 million in New Mexico.

These costs are staggering. The Cochise County, Arizona Health Department spends as much as 30 percent of its annual $9 million budget on illegal aliens. The Copper Queen Hospital in Bisbee, Arizona, has spent $200,000 in uncompensated services out of a net operating budget of $300,000. The University Medical Center in Tucson may lose as much as $10 million and the Good Samaritan Regional Medical Center, also in Tucson, has lost $1 million in the first quarter of fiscal 2002.

The Gwinnett, Georgia, Hospital System expects has established a $34 million reserve to cover its anticipated outlay for illegal aliens in 2003. Los Angeles Times columnist Ronald Brownstein wrote in his December 30, 2003 column that the 'Health-Care Storm Brewing in California Threatens to Swamp U.S... the impending Medicaid disaster is not a problem the states can handle alone; their budget shortfalls are too big.'

"The General Accounting Office traveled to southern Arizona to study the impact of illegal immigrants on Arizona and other border state hospitals. In 2002, three hospitals located in Cochise County funded more than $1 million in uncompensated health care costs... The Florida Hospital Association surveyed 28 hospitals and found that health care for illegal aliens totaled at least $40 million in 2002."

http://www.theamericanresistance.com/is ... _care.html

Many state and local law enforcement agencies are reporting that they are using up to 30% of their resources to arrest, detain and jail illegal alien criminals. Many criminal gangs are made up largely of illegal aliens who come to this country for no reason other than to commit crimes.

Just some statistics:

• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

• A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

• The leadership of the Columbia Lil’ Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.

The costs for 1997, which is the last year I can find information:

Public Schools (Primary, Secondary, Higher, etc) $22.5 billion

Bilingual Education, ESOL, ESL Education $ 3.3 billion

Medicaid $12.8 billion

AFDC (for illegal immigrant's offspring) $ 2.4 billion

Social Security $24.8 billion

Supplemental Security Income $ 2.9 billion

Housing Assistance $ 2.6 billion

Criminal Justice $ 2.6 billion

Jobs Lost by Americans $10.8 billion

Other Programs $51.4 billion

How do undocumented workers cost us extra? And if they do, how could this extra amount in taxes possibly surpass the amount we save at the grocery store?

You would pay to see hard-working individuals striving to achieve a better life tossed back into poverty?

If they are going to come here illegally, absolutely. There is a right way and a wrong way to do things, running across the border in the middle of the night is the wrong way. The United States is under no obligation whatsoever to cater to individuals who violate the law, regardless of their justification for doing so.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

The federal Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) mandates that U.S. hospitals with emergency-room services must treat anyone who requires care, including illegal aliens. Medical service for Americans in affected communities is being severely damaged as hospitals absorb more than $200 million in unreimbursed costs. Some emergency rooms have shut down because they cannot afford to stay open. Local tax-paying Americans are either denied medical care or have to wait in long lines for service as the illegals flood the facilities. In California, the losses are calculated to be about $79 million, with $74 million in Texas, $31 million in Arizona, and $6 million in New Mexico.

This is an entirely seperate problem.

US hospitals should not be paying a cent in patient treatment. Health care is the government's responsibility.

Every industrialized nation on Earth provides it's citizens with universal coverage, save a handful. Of that handful, there are TWO countries who's coverage rates are below 90%: The Netherlands at 80%, and the US, whose coverage averages 50% (that being a generous estimate).

Absolutely pitiful.

Lawmakers make it seem like universal coverage is a difficult level to attain. Not an easy argument to make when $60,000,000,000 of our tax revenue is currently paying for the military's 10,000 nuclear warheads (about 9,990 more that would be needed even in the event of an all out nuclear war).

Public Schools (Primary, Secondary, Higher, etc) $22.5 billion

AFDC (for illegal immigrant's offspring) $ 2.4 billion

Supplemental Security Income $ 2.9 billion

Housing Assistance $ 2.6 billion

Social Security $24.8 billion

Bilingual Education, ESOL, ESL Education $ 3.3 billion

Providing hispanics the education opportunities that are not available in their home countries?

Taking care of their unfortunate children?

Distributing extra capital to them so as to help them pave their way to a better life?

Helping upgrade their homes from tin shacks to heated apartment buildings?

Providing a social safety net?

All sounds good to me. Consider this partial compensation for the government's miserable amount of foreign humanitarian aid (The smallest percentage of donated funds on earth).

Medicaid $12.8 billion

Only 12.8 billion?

Anything below 50 billion is unacceptable.

Jobs Lost by Americans $10.8 billion

Jobs lost by Americans if all immigrants were legalized: incalcuably small.



By the way, what happens if all these aliens do become naturalized? A greater percentage of their taxes goes to help pay for all of this.

If they are going to come here illegally, absolutely. There is a right way and a wrong way to do things, running across the border in the middle of the night is the wrong way.

Then get rid of the border patrol and set up immigration offices so that they can come over in the comfort of daylight.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

But nationalism is NOT a bigot classification.

Nationalism is bigotry by definition.

To ask people that had to leave a worthless society for America, to respect America and American laws, is the sensible and rational thing to do.

Of course.

So why don't our fellow American citizens (even the patriotic types) not respect America's laws?

There is no such thing as a crime-free nation. To allow a culture to permeate our society entails the prospect that many of these people will break the law.

Mexicans should not be allowed to BE racists on American soil.

Then niether should social conservatives and their wetback mantra.

If they want to "become Americans" then they should become Americans. That is not anything but decency. You walk into a Mexican store in Chicago and the store "owner" cannot and will not spaek to you in English. It is time for these "Americans" to get sued for racism. In english with a "translator" to educate them on "diversity and tolerance."

The store owner is being "intolerant" by not speaking English?

Perhaps he is too busy trying to make ends meat to take the time to learn?

I have no problem with subcultures. Only an intolerant person would.

[Cephus]

US hospitals should not be paying a cent in patient treatment. Health care is the government's responsibility.

No, you wish it was the government's responsibility. At the moment, it is the responsibility of the individuals, insurance companies and the hospitals. Let's try dealing with reality, not your silly fantasies.

Providing hispanics the education opportunities that are not available in their home countries?

Not our job.

Taking care of their unfortunate children?

Not our job.

Distributing extra capital to them so as to help them pave their way to a better life?

Not our job.

Helping upgrade their homes from tin shacks to heated apartment buildings?

Not our job.

Providing a social safety net?

Not our job.

It is, however, the job of the American government to take care of AMERICAN CITIZENS.

Jobs lost by Americans if all immigrants were legalized: incalcuably small.

Mostly because you've just made all the immigrants Americans. Hey, let's use that to stop crime! Let's just redefine all criminals as non-criminals, therefore, we have no crime!

Your lack of logic astounds me.

By the way, what happens if all these aliens do become naturalized?

The majority of the aliens have no interest in becoming naturalized. They do not want to become American citizens, they're just here to make a buck and go back to Mexico. You think they're here because they want to become part of the Land of the Free, they're really here because they're looking for the Land of the Freeloaders.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

US hospitals should not be paying a cent in patient treatment. Health care is the government's responsibility.

No, you wish it was the government's responsibility. At the moment, it is the responsibility of the individuals, insurance companies and the hospitals. Let's try dealing with reality, not your silly fantasies.

It should be the government's responsibility, is what I meant.

Obviously it's not now.

Not our job.

It is, however, the job of the American government to take care of AMERICAN CITIZENS.

And what makes these American citizens so special as to warrant more consideration by the government?

Who needs these safety nets more? Well-to-do Americans with well more than is needed to sustain life, or neglected Hispanics from humble backgrounds?

I don't believe in national borders, much less allowing them to restrict access to social programs. In my worldview, a person's place of origin is irrelevant. A human being is a human being, and is entitled to decent economic opportunities no matter where he/she lives.

Yes, a united global state is what I am referring to. For a nation to adopt such a system without international cooperation is nearly impossibly, but there is no reason we cannot start taking steps in that direction. Globalization is offering new hope for my dream, as different regions of the world are beginning to collaborate on a vast variety of business ventures.


"Not our job"? It's got to be someone's job, and right now no one is stepping up to the plate. Not necissarily because they won't, but largely because many Latin American governments can't afford to. Well, we can afford to. Who is stopping us?

Jobs lost by Americans if all immigrants were legalized: incalcuably small.

Mostly because you've just made all the immigrants Americans. Hey, let's use that to stop crime! Let's just redefine all criminals as non-criminals, therefore, we have no crime!

Your lack of logic astounds me.

Put two and two together.

Companies hire illegals because they can pay them less, which results in the displacement of American jobs. But if all these illegal workers were naturalized, companies would be forced to offer them minimum wage, abolishing the incentive to hire them over an American worker.

Simple and effective. As of yet, no one has aptly demonstrated the contrary.

The majority of the aliens have no interest in becoming naturalized. They do not want to become American citizens, they're just here to make a buck and go back to Mexico. You think they're here because they want to become part of the Land of the Free, they're really here because they're looking for the Land of the Freeloaders.

Freeloaders?

They are taking over lazy American's jobs and working twice as hard for half the pay.

Find me a single American willing to work 80 hours a week for $3 an hour. I don't blame Wal-Mart for wanting to utilize these guys.

We can make them citizens until they decide to go back. All problems will still be solved. I don't think they would mind signing a few papers if they are presented with the prospect of minimum wage.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

A new scenario:


Send US companies to Mexico, but force them to pay considerably higher than the local wage standard. All the 'wetbacks' would have no reason to come here in the first place.

The government could actually buy land in Mexico for businesses to expand on, and annex it, putting it under American labor laws.

If we can outsource journalists and accountants, surely we can outsource prospective immigrants as well.