Gun Control and the 2nd Amendment

Two hot topics for the price of one

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nygreenguy
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Gun Control and the 2nd Amendment

Post #1

Post by nygreenguy »

Fresh Air on NPR had a very interesting story about gun control and the 2nd amendment.
Spitzer says the original interpretation of the Second Amendment was not controversial in the way it has become politicized in the 20th century — and the debate about whether the Second Amendment protected only militia service or whether it also protected the personal right to own guns is a relatively recent one.

"As a matter of history, we didn't really see anything like the individual point of view emerge until the 20th century," he says. "That doesn't mean individuals didn't own guns or didn't think gun ownership was an important thing — of course they did — but the chief purpose that is cited for the individual ownership of guns is personal protection — from predators, from criminals or from marauding Indians or whatever threats might arise — but you didn't need the Second Amendment to ensure that civilians would have the right to defend themselves or to own a gun to defend themselves."

The modern debate about individual rights pertaining to guns, he says, began in the aftermath of Congress' enactment of the Gun Control Act of 1968, which attempted to control crime in the aftermath of the assassinations of John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr. and Robert Kennedy.

"In the 1970s, you see the Second Amendment rhetoric escalate dramatically as an argument against stronger gun laws and to identify gun ownership with American values and historical values," he says. "You find this increasingly heavy emphasis on Second Amendment rights and Constitutional rhetoric as part of the argument against enacting stronger gun laws."

"The burden was placed on each militia-eligible man to obtain firearms, to keep them in good working order and to bring them to militia service at such time when they were called up. In fact, Congress enacted a law in 1792 which required militiamen to have a working musket. ... That law was widely ignored, but it underscored the fact that the government didn't have the resources or ability to arm militia citizens, and so the burden fell on the [citizens]."



What is also interesting about this interview where they talked about Scalia, who supported, an went against precedence, the idea the 2nd amendment was for personal protection. What is interesting about this is how Scalia always advocates for a literalist interpretation of the law, in which personal ownership is no where mentioned.

Should the 2nd amendment include the right to own guns? Can this be justified from a literalist perspective? Can this be justified at all? Do we even need this amendment anymore?

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Kuan
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Post #41

Post by Kuan »

Grumpy wrote:Wyvern
Instead of cutting up the statement into two parts how about we keep both together as originally done. As a part of a well regulated militia the right to bear arms shall not be infringed. In effect by obtaining a firearm you are agreeing to become part of a local militia which the local authorities could call upon in times of trouble. If there's flooding they could be called upon to fill sandbags, earthquakes they can help in search and recovery efforts if a child gets lost in the woods they could be called up to help in the search efforts and so on. It seems pretty obvious that a person that has a firearm is agreeing to increase their civic responsibilities and as we have seen it is generally not groups of people with guns that cause problems it is usually the crazy loners or outcasts. By requiring people with guns to also be part of a local militia you would also remove much of the problems of lone gunmen while at the same time not infringing on the right to bear arms one bit. I see this as not being all that different than voting, by entering yourself in the rolls of voters you also are enrolling in the jury pool.
This was what was meant by "Well regulated militias"as I tried to explain, but you have done a much better job of it. I would only add the proviso that all have a right to have a firearm within the home for self protection even if not active in a militia, registered of course. You could also require that home defense weapon to be too large to be carried concealed.

Grumpy 8-)
I could agree with what Wyvern said.
You could also require that home defense weapon to be too large to be carried concealed.
.50 cal?
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East of Eden
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Post #42

Post by East of Eden »

Grumpy wrote:Wyvern
Instead of cutting up the statement into two parts how about we keep both together as originally done. As a part of a well regulated militia the right to bear arms shall not be infringed. In effect by obtaining a firearm you are agreeing to become part of a local militia which the local authorities could call upon in times of trouble. If there's flooding they could be called upon to fill sandbags, earthquakes they can help in search and recovery efforts if a child gets lost in the woods they could be called up to help in the search efforts and so on. It seems pretty obvious that a person that has a firearm is agreeing to increase their civic responsibilities and as we have seen it is generally not groups of people with guns that cause problems it is usually the crazy loners or outcasts. By requiring people with guns to also be part of a local militia you would also remove much of the problems of lone gunmen while at the same time not infringing on the right to bear arms one bit. I see this as not being all that different than voting, by entering yourself in the rolls of voters you also are enrolling in the jury pool.
This was what was meant by "Well regulated militias"as I tried to explain, but you have done a much better job of it. I would only add the proviso that all have a right to have a firearm within the home for self protection even if not active in a militia, registered of course. You could also require that home defense weapon to be too large to be carried concealed.

Grumpy 8-)
FWIW, in my state your car and bike are considered an extension of your home so you are free to have a gun in those situations.
"We are fooling ourselves if we imagine that we can ever make the authentic Gospel popular......it is too simple in an age of rationalism; too narrow in an age of pluralism; too humiliating in an age of self-confidence; too demanding in an age of permissiveness; and too unpatriotic in an age of blind nationalism." Rev. John R.W. Stott, CBE

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Post #43

Post by East of Eden »

Prisoner of the Sun wrote:This is such an interesting debate for an outsider. I am English originally and have been living in Australia for over 20 years. It is very difficult to obtain any kind of firearm here. The police are armed, but are very rarely put in a position to use their pistols. After the Port Arthur massacre in Hobart some years ago, the number of firearms registered in this country was dramatically reduced by legislation. There are very few gun related murders here. I live in Brisbane, a city of over 2 million people and there are to my knowledge only 5 or 6 gun dealers. The carrying of weapons is illegal for everyone except the police or other profession such as security guard. Gun licences are restricted. There are extensive criminal checks made both in Queensland and interstate. Any domestic violence complaint bars you from a licence. Obtaining a license gives you permission to buy a weapon, but each purchase is subject to the granting of a permit and the onus is on the purchaser to show a need for owning the firearm. Semi-automatic weapons are illegal across Australia. Don't get me wrong, there is gun-related violence here, but an armed robbery, even if no-one is hurt, is front-page news here. I know a couple of people who own guns (they are farmers who use them to control vermin) but I don't know anyone living in metropolitan Brisbane who owns a gun. Biker gangs, such as the Bandidos, are the biggest concern here at the moment.
In Australia crime has risen since the gun ban, it was decreasing for years before. I guess the criminal element now feel the sheeple to be easy pickins.

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847
"We are fooling ourselves if we imagine that we can ever make the authentic Gospel popular......it is too simple in an age of rationalism; too narrow in an age of pluralism; too humiliating in an age of self-confidence; too demanding in an age of permissiveness; and too unpatriotic in an age of blind nationalism." Rev. John R.W. Stott, CBE

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