Heaven

[JBlack]

God has chosen those whom he will save through his divine election for his purposes. There is nothing any man can do to become saved but beg God for mercy unto salvation. Asking for mercy does not guarantee our salvation...
For example, the bible says if seek him and you shall find him but it also makes it clear that NO ONE seeks him, the bible says repent, but it is God who grants repentance, the bible says come to me all you who are weary, but it also teaches that NO ONE can come unless drawn by the Father, And again the bible says he who recieves me receives the one who sent me, but it also teaches that no one can receive anything unless it be given him from heaven. So while one one hand some commands may seem clear we get further clarification when we compare all of the scriptures together.

So, there's nothing anybody can do to be saved. I can become Christian, accept Jesus, repent, do as the bible says, and after I die... still go to hell?
But yet, God is just, merciful and all-loving?!?

Yes, you can do all those things above and still go to hell.

But what about verses like these?:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Questions for debate:

1. What must one do, according to the Bible, in order to go to heaven?
2. If AIEC is right, that you can become Christian and do as the Bible says, and still go to hell when you die, then what is the point of Christianity?

[otseng]

When faced with a collection of documents (the Bible) that claims a whole host of logical impossibilities and paradoxes about an alleged deity and which frankly makes said deity appear to be a sadist and a sociopath, wouldn't it be more reasonable to call the validity of this collection into question rather than simply hand waving all of these paradoxes aside and accepting them at face value? Even if one accepts the need for a creator god, there is no reason to accept a being devoid of love and mercy as him.

Moderator comment:

Per the TDD guidelines:

In this subforum, the Bible is considered an authoritative source. Challenges to the authority of the Bible are not allowed here.

[Metatron]

When faced with a collection of documents (the Bible) that claims a whole host of logical impossibilities and paradoxes about an alleged deity and which frankly makes said deity appear to be a sadist and a sociopath, wouldn't it be more reasonable to call the validity of this collection into question rather than simply hand waving all of these paradoxes aside and accepting them at face value? Even if one accepts the need for a creator god, there is no reason to accept a being devoid of love and mercy as him.

Moderator comment:

Per the TDD guidelines:

In this subforum, the Bible is considered an authoritative source. Challenges to the authority of the Bible are not allowed here.

Oops, my bad!

Okay, let's take a slightly different tack.

When faced with an interpretation of the Bible that would appear to indicate a whole host of logical impossibilities and paradoxes about God and which appears to make said deity into a sadist and sociopath, wouldn't it be more reasonable to come to a non-literalist interpretation rather than simply hand waving all of these paradoxes aside and accepting them at face value? It simply makes no sense at all to claim on the one hand that God is love, mercy, compassion, etc. and on the other claim that he has predestined billions of people to eternal torment with no chance of redemption. Even from God's point of view, it all seems pointless.

[myth-one.com]

When faced with an interpretation of the Bible that would appear to indicate a whole host of logical impossibilities and paradoxes about God and which appears to make said deity into a sadist and sociopath, wouldn't it be more reasonable to come to a non-literalist interpretation rather than simply hand waving all of these paradoxes aside and accepting them at face value?

My only problem with that statement is that the "interpretation" of many that God "has predestined billions of people to eternal torment with no chance of redemption" is the non-literalist interpretation!

It simply makes no sense at all to claim on the one hand that God is love, mercy, compassion, etc. and on the other claim that he has predestined billions of people to eternal torment with no chance of redemption. Even from God's point of view, it all seems pointless.

That is absolutely, positively, dead on correct!

Can anyone not agree with that statement?

If God predestined billions of people to eternal torment with no chance of redemption, then on his worst behavior wasn't Adolf Hitler more benelovent that God?

[scottlittlefield17]

It simply makes no sense at all to claim on the one hand that God is love, mercy, compassion, etc. and on the other claim that he has predestined billions of people to eternal torment with no chance of redemption. Even from God's point of view, it all seems pointless.

I hate to say it my friends but to believe in predestination is heresy. Does not God say that he wants all men to be saved? He does not say "the elect" or "the chosen" or any other thing but all. Last time I checked the Greek meaning of all, it meant ALL. So to claim that God has predestined some to go to hell would mean that he directly contradicted himself. How could you believe such a thing?