Obama's apologies to the muslim community

[HappyTikiman]

In light of Obama's speech to the Muslim community I think we should have a little debate.

Intro
I live in middle Tennessee and the only talk show radio stations we have is a heavy republican oriented talk radio, and national public radio. NPR was playing the usual classical music, but its not very good while doing hard labour. On the other station. Phil Valentine, local republican talk show hero, had managed to get pretty heated about Obama's recent speech. He did mention some points that I would like to present to this forum.

Questions

1. Is the United States going to become a Muslim dominated country?

2. Will Obama's apologies be accepted by the Muslim community?

3. Should the nation worry about its president's new apologetic direction?

4. Would this help or hender the United States relations with the world community?

Debate Material

Obama's speech, scroll down on the webpage

[I AM ALL I AM]

See the numerous places here where Muhammad murdered those that opposed him. You won't find any such examples with Jesus Christ.

G'day East of Eden.

If you believe the doctrine that 'Jesus' IS 'God', then, as written in the bible, 'God' killed over 2 million people (plus the whole world, except a few, at one point if you believe the flood story), and so 'Jesus' is a mass murderer.

You're changing the subject from the man Jesus to the Old Testament. Anyway as murder is defined as the unlawful taking of a life, by definition that excludes God's actions. You're ignoring the horrendous sin that generation was caught up in.

If you have the power to create life, you have the power to take life.

G'day east of Eden.

Do you believe that 'Jesus' is 'God' ?

If so, how can you justify the claim that there is a change of subject from the NT to the OT ?

Sin is a Mesopotamian Moon God.

I have that same power.

Your attempts to justify your 'God's' bloodthirsty nature lacks any logic and is equivalent of supporting any other mass murderer throughout human history.

[East of Eden]

See the numerous places here where Muhammad murdered those that opposed him. You won't find any such examples with Jesus Christ.

G'day East of Eden.

If you believe the doctrine that 'Jesus' IS 'God', then, as written in the bible, 'God' killed over 2 million people (plus the whole world, except a few, at one point if you believe the flood story), and so 'Jesus' is a mass murderer.

You're changing the subject from the man Jesus to the Old Testament. Anyway as murder is defined as the unlawful taking of a life, by definition that excludes God's actions. You're ignoring the horrendous sin that generation was caught up in.

If you have the power to create life, you have the power to take life.

G'day east of Eden.

Do you believe that 'Jesus' is 'God' ?

If so, how can you justify the claim that there is a change of subject from the NT to the OT ?

Sin is a Mesopotamian Moon God.

I have that same power.

Your attempts to justify your 'God's' bloodthirsty nature lacks any logic and is equivalent of supporting any other mass murderer throughout human history.

My statement stands, Jesus never harmed anyone.

By your reasoning executing a criminal is murder.

[I AM ALL I AM]

G'day East of Eden.

I believe that it was perpetrated by those that control the 'war industry'.

If they were that powerful, why didn't they prevent Obama becoming president or get rid of him, since the GOP is generally more favorable to the military?

Why would they need to ?

Obama hasn't done anything to stop the war in Iraq.

@ your 3rd response - In Australia, John Howard won his last election on the lie that granting equality to same-sex-oriented citizens would undermine the state – a lie promulgated [in the face of mountains of contradictory evidence] by the powerful christian lobby. According to Cardinal Pell and his Anglican and fundamentalist bedfellows, so great was this threat to national security that it took precedence over terrorism, the economy and all else, requiring a special session of parliament be convened to change the constitution to ensure that same-sex-oriented people can never have equality in Australia, and their oppression will continue – along with the hate crimes, murders, bashings, and suicides that are always the result of State-sponsored oppression.

John Howard is a great man. Apparently the majority of Australians are also guilty of this 'oppression'.

Please show supporting evidence to your assertion that "John Howard is a great man".

Yes they are.

The U.S.A. is another example of an oppressive christian government.

Because Bush or Obama are Christians doesn't mean the US has a Christian government.

Really ?

What difference do you see between a christian government and a government run by a christian ?

G.W. Bush declared himself a christian and sanctioned torture of people without trial at Guantanamo Bay.

There was no torture, it was humiliation. Torture is pulling someone's fingernails out. I wouldn't care if Bush had executed all those vermin in Guantanamo, after they ceased to be useful. FDR did the same thing when he caught German sabatuers here out of uniform in WWII. They got their due process (execution) quickly.

(CBS) The story that Sgt. Erik Saar, a soldier who spent three months in the interrogation rooms at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, tells Correspondent Scott Pelley paints a picture of bizarre, even sadistic, treatment of detainees in the American prison camp.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/ ... 1602.shtml


Army Private Brandon Neely served as a prison guard at Guantánamo in the first years the facility was in operation. With the Bush Administration, and thus the threat of retaliation against him, now gone, Neely decided to step forward and tell his story. “The stuff I did and the stuff I saw was just wrong,� he told the Associated Press. Neely describes the arrival of detainees in full sensory-deprivation garb, he details their sexual abuse by medical personnel, torture by other medical personnel, brutal beatings out of frustration, fear, and retribution, the first hunger strike and its causes, torturous shackling, positional torture, interference with religious practices and beliefs, verbal abuse, restriction of recreation, the behavior of mentally ill detainees, an isolation regime that was put in place for child-detainees, and his conversations with prisoners David Hicks and Rhuhel Ahmed.

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/02/hbc-90004409

You appear to be lacking the facts of what has taken place at Guantanamo Bay. the above reports are from American servicemen that show otherwise than what you say. Considering that they were actually there, I'd take their word for it over your assertions.

He introduced the Homeland Security Act and USA Patriot Act, which contravened the constitution.

No they didn't.

All of these are oppressive acts of fascism.

(CNN) -- A federal court on Wednesday struck down two provisions of the Patriot Act dealing with searches and intelligence gathering, saying they violate the Fourth Amendment protection against unreasonable searches and seizures with regard to criminal prosecutions.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/09/26/pa ... index.html


The civil liberties imperilled by the Homeland Security Act include some constitutional rights, namely: the rights to freedom of speech, religion, assembly and privacy; the rights to counsel and due process; and protection from unreasonable searches and seizures.

Maybe you should do some research before you make declarations that do not fit the facts.

The occupation of Iraq is an expansionist policy.

We will be out of Iraq soon. I'm glad the murderer of 600,000 Iraqis isn't in power anymore. The example of a free Iraq seem to be spilling over to Iran.

America and allies are illegal invaders of a sovereign nation.

Iraq war was illegal and breached UN charter, says Annan

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/16/iraq.iraq

@ your 4th response - Are you saying that 'Jesus' was alive after AD70 ?

Being God, yes. He is alive today.

Your illogical claim of that passage referring to a future event is noted.

Please provide non-biblical proof of your claim that 'Jesus' is 'God' and that he is "alive today".

@ your 5th response - Lieutenant General A.A. Vandergrift former Commandant of the Untied States Marine Corps said the following: It is literally true-there are no atheists in foxholes-religion is precious under fire."

So former US military officers are not allowed to be in ministries? Huh?

There was no statement from em saying that they shouldn't be in ministries.

What is the point of your question ?

The foxhole is wherever one has taken a position against an enemy. It is both a defensive and offensive position which means that those who are on the front lines of battle as well as those who pray from home both occupy the foxhole.

At Force Ministries we are committed to the support and the enrichment of those who have taken up these positions. To the soldier, airmen, marine, sailor, coast guardsmen, police officer, or federal law enforcement personnel our commitment is to encourage Faith and Support Christ centered duty.

http://www.forceministries.com/

Divine Force Ministries is an Apostolic Evangelistic Ministry. Our mission is to take the Gospel of Salvation, with an end-times prophetic message, to every corner of the world! We follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and allow the Holy Spirit to work as God directs under the promised end-times outpouring.

The final days of this world are upon us and we are in the midst of a great Spiritual War. We believe the last thing God wants His people to be focused on is prosperity! It is God's will for His people to prosper, but it is more important for them to experience the gift of Salvation and gifts of the Holy Spirit. We believe the time is now that the message of Matthew 28:19 must be completely fulfilled: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." We must go into all the world and preach the gospel and see people baptized in water and in the Holy Spirit!

We as believers can reduce the number of casualties that are lost in these final battles, but only if we are willing to fight for every single soul! God's Word states in Matthew 11:12 (NIV) "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it!" It is time for some forceful saints to rise up and go to war!

http://divineforceministries.com/templa ... p?id=44125

Thank you for bringing this ministry to my attention. I've added the website to my favorites and will probably be sending them a donation. Another example of 'Christian oppression' that isn't, I suppose.

You "suppose" incorrectly. That appears to be a common trait in your responses.

Your assumption of "cluelessness" is noted. Verbal abuse is most often used in a debate when the individual has no rebuttal.

Or it could be a statement of fact.

Please provide your proof that it is "a statement of fact".

I also note your prompting of using a capital 'C' when spelling christianity. I understand that it is "normal", but I do not use it because I find nothing worthwhile to denote the use of a capital 'C' in conjunction with the word christianity.

Do you also not capitalize Islam, or is your hate reserved for Christianity?

Your assumption of "hate" is noted.

Do you have any proof that I in fact hate anything at all ?

If so, please provide the proof that you have.

It is ironic that you label others as repressive religious fascists because they follow beliefs set out in their religious texts, but have no problem with chritians doing the same from their religious texts, even citing your religious text as reason for oppressive fascist acts .

Still waiting for you to come up with an example of a repressive Christian fascist act.

I have already provided you with them.

@ your 6th response - the identities of those apparent hijackers have been shown to be falsified. At least 9 of them are still alive. The 'evidence' supporting these fallacious accusations included a passport that survived the plane crash, the subsequent explosion and demolition of one of the world trade centre towers.

So where are these 9 still alive?

Google it. It's called research.

Osama Bin Laden was recruited by the CIA. He was part of U.S.A.'s state sponsored terrorism in other countries .....

So the effort to free Afganistan from the Soviets was state sponsored terrorism?

Please show proof to your assertion that there has been any effort to "free Afghanistan" by sponsoring the Taliban which the allied forces are now fighting against.

Prime suspect in the New York and Washington terrorists attacks, branded by the FBI as an "international terrorist" for his role in the African US embassy bombings, Saudi born Osama bin Laden was recruited during the Soviet-Afghan war "ironically under the auspices of the CIA, to fight Soviet invaders". 1

In 1979 "the largest covert operation in the history of the CIA" was launched in response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in support of the pro-Communist government of Babrak Kamal.2:

With the active encouragement of the CIA and Pakistan's ISI [Inter Services Intelligence], who wanted to turn the Afghan jihad into a global war waged by all Muslim states against the Soviet Union, some 35,000 Muslim radicals from 40 Islamic countries joined Afghanistan's fight between 1982 and 1992. Tens of thousands more came to study in Pakistani madrasahs. Eventually more than 100,000 foreign Muslim radicals were directly influenced by the Afghan jihad.3

The Islamic "jihad" was supported by the United States and Saudi Arabia with a significant part of the funding generated from the Golden Crescent drug trade:

In March 1985, President Reagan signed National Security Decision Directive 166,...[which] authorize[d] stepped-up covert military aid to the mujahideen, and it made clear that the secret Afghan war had a new goal: to defeat Soviet troops in Afghanistan through covert action and encourage a Soviet withdrawal. The new covert U.S. assistance began with a dramatic increase in arms supplies -- a steady rise to 65,000 tons annually by 1987, ... as well as a "ceaseless stream" of CIA and Pentagon specialists who traveled to the secret headquarters of Pakistan's ISI on the main road near Rawalpindi, Pakistan. There the CIA specialists met with Pakistani intelligence officers to help plan operations for the Afghan rebels.4

The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) using Pakistan's military Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) played a key role in training the Mujahideen. In turn, the CIA sponsored guerrilla training was integrated with the teachings of Islam:

Predominant themes were that Islam was a complete socio-political ideology, that holy Islam was being violated by the atheistic Soviet troops, and that the Islamic people of Afghanistan should reassert their independence by overthrowing the leftist Afghan regime propped up by Moscow.5

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO109C.html

A small amount of independent research would have provided you with the means to recognise the propaganda promulgated by the government and main stream media to justify a war that was sanctioned by the United Nations as illegal.

Further to this, you could also find out that the U.S.A. has been using depleted uranium internationally in contravention of international law.



I suggest the following documentary for further understanding ...

Beyond Treason
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0240371882

Beyond Treason focuses into the aftermath of first Gulf war and the fact that American soldiers have been suffering 15 years of post-traumatic stress disorder. Because this explanation doesn't cover all the symptoms that soldiers have had, U.S. Department of Defense's says it's a "mystery disease". The main theme of Beyond Treason is to show what really happened in the Middle-East in early 90's and how the soldiers were exposed to depleted uranium. And like if that hadn't been enough, the same soldiers got untested vaccines. Beyond Treason is a patriotic and critical documentary, that doesn't play guessing games but hits the viewer with cold, hard facts.

Few veterans and experts of Gulf War talk in front of the camera about some serious issues, and tell their views and experiences about the war and origins of the disease - and also the neglects of U.S. Army towards their own people. Doug Rokke, ex-physicist and Director of the U.S. Army Depleted Uranium Project gets the main share of interview time and with a good reason. He has unquestionable amount information to tell and convinces the viewer with his self-presentation.

Although the stories of soldiers that got sick during the war, are very compelling to listen to - the film shows also horrifying images of deformed babies to stress the seriousness of the facts. Is that social pornography? Some might say it is, but my own opinion it is the real option to mainstream media, showing the true and dark side of the war. It is always tough to see mutilated bodies, but some of these people were even alive when the pictures were taken.

Besides the theme of Beyond Treason, it tells also the background of dark history of U.S. governments human experiences. Secret documents of this fact has been exposed to public lately. Projects like MKultra and Whitecoat get covered in Beyond Treason - and remember, they are not conspiracy theories but real stuff. Lewis and Riley (spokesperson of American Gulf War Veterans Association) have collected an enormous amount of evidence. Although there are not many people interviewed, there is no use to complain: with DVD, there is also CD-ROM full of real evidence: scanned documents and text that have been the base of this films revealings! A great idea, that gives Beyond Treason even more credibility.[/b][/color]

OK, I get it. You live in a world of kooks, and you really hate the USA. Funny the rest of the world is breaking their necks to get here.

[/quote]

Yes, there are many religious "kooks" in the world.

You appear to have a fixation with the word "hate". Please provide any proof at all that I "hate the USA".

Also, please provide proof to your assertion that "the rest of the world is breaking their necks to get here".

[East of Eden]

Why would they need to ?

Obama hasn't done anything to stop the war in Iraq.[/color]

Yes, Mr. HopeChange has collided with reality.

Please show supporting evidence to your assertion that "John Howard is a great man".

He appears to oppose 'gay' marriage, and is very strong on the war on terror.

What difference do you see between a christian government and a government run by a christian ?[/color]

A Christian government would be like the UK, which has a state church. As the US is a de facto Christian nation, its very likely most of the leaders will be Christian.

(CBS) The story that Sgt. Erik Saar, a soldier who spent three months in the interrogation rooms at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, tells Correspondent Scott Pelley paints a picture of bizarre, even sadistic, treatment of detainees in the American prison camp.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/ ... 1602.shtml


Army Private Brandon Neely served as a prison guard at Guantánamo in the first years the facility was in operation. With the Bush Administration, and thus the threat of retaliation against him, now gone, Neely decided to step forward and tell his story. “The stuff I did and the stuff I saw was just wrong,� he told the Associated Press. Neely describes the arrival of detainees in full sensory-deprivation garb, he details their sexual abuse by medical personnel, torture by other medical personnel, brutal beatings out of frustration, fear, and retribution, the first hunger strike and its causes, torturous shackling, positional torture, interference with religious practices and beliefs, verbal abuse, restriction of recreation, the behavior of mentally ill detainees, an isolation regime that was put in place for child-detainees, and his conversations with prisoners David Hicks and Rhuhel Ahmed.

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/02/hbc-90004409

You appear to be lacking the facts of what has taken place at Guantanamo Bay. the above reports are from American servicemen that show otherwise than what you say. Considering that they were actually there, I'd take their word for it over your assertions.[/color]

These vermin are not covered by the Geneva Convention. I recently listened to a speech by the former second in command at Guantanamo. He didn't mention any of these things. He did mention the abuse US soldiers got at the hands of these vermin, like having excrement hurled at them, being told when they got out they would rape their wives, etc. I belileve him over you.

(CNN) -- A federal court on Wednesday struck down two provisions of the Patriot Act dealing with searches and intelligence gathering, saying they violate the Fourth Amendment protection against unreasonable searches and seizures with regard to criminal prosecutions.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/09/26/pa ... index.html


The civil liberties imperilled by the Homeland Security Act include some constitutional rights, namely: the rights to freedom of speech, religion, assembly and privacy; the rights to counsel and due process; and protection from unreasonable searches and seizures.

Maybe you should do some research before you make declarations that do not fit the facts.

I am aware there are dumb judges out there. You do believe a judge can be wrong, don't you?

America and allies are illegal invaders of a sovereign nation.

Iraq war was illegal and breached UN charter, says Annan

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/16/iraq.iraq

Yawn. I can't tell you how little I care about the opinion of the corrupt, do-nothing UN. If it were up to me the US would withdraw from the UN. Here are a few nations the UN sees fit to be in leadership positions:

Saturday, June 13, 2009
UN Leaders: CROOKS, DESPOTS AND HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSERS
From an EYEontheUN email, June 10, 2009, by Anne Bayefsky:

LIBYA - PRESIDENT OF THE UN GENERAL ASSEMBLY
[June 10], Libya was elected President of the UN General Assembly. Ali Abdussalam Treky of Libya, Libyan Minister for African Affairs, will assume the role of President in September. The General Assembly is supposed to assist "in the realization of human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion." Here is how Libya has "fulfilled" the General Assembly's mandate:

US State Department's Country Report on Human Rights Practices 2008, Libya:
"Citizens did not have the right to change their government. Remaining problems included reported disappearances; torture; arbitrary arrest; lengthy pretrial and sometimes incommunicado detention; official impunity and poor prison conditions...denial of a fair public trial by an independent judiciary, political prisoners and detainees, and the lack of judicial recourse for alleged human rights violations...The government restricted civil liberties and freedoms of speech, press...assembly, and association...freedom of religion; corruption and lack of transparency; societal discrimination against women, ethnic minorities, and foreign workers; trafficking in persons; and restriction of labor rights."

Libya already holds a non-permanent seat on the Security Council - with the job of promoting "peace and security" - until the end of 2009. From this seat, Libya promotes the murder of Israelis or anyone it claims should be "resisted": "My delegation stresses the right of the Palestinian people to resist occupation. That right is recognized under all international norms and laws. My country completely rejects any linkage between resistance to occupation and terrorism." (July 22, 2008)

SUDAN - A VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE UN GENERAL ASSEMBLY
[June 10], Sudan was elected a Vice-President of the UN General Assembly. Here is how Sudan has "fulfilled" the General Assembly mandate. Its President is currently evading an international arrest warrant on war crimes and crimes against humanity. And:

US State Department's Country Report on Human Rights Practices 2008, Sudan:
"Civilians in Darfur continued to suffer from the effects of genocide. Government forces bombed villages, killed civilians including internally displaced persons (IDPs), and collaborated with janjaweed militias and tribal factions to raze villages and perpetrate violence against women...The government's human rights record...abridgement of citizens' right to change their government; extrajudicial and other unlawful killings by government forces and other government-aligned groups throughout the country; disappearances...torture, beatings, rape, and other cruel, inhumane treatment or punishment by security forces; harsh prison conditions; arbitrary arrest and detention, incommunicado detention of suspected government opponents, and prolonged pretrial detention; executive interference with the judiciary and denial of due process; obstruction of the delivery of humanitarian assistance; restrictions on privacy; restrictions on freedom of speech...on the press...on freedoms of assembly, association, religion, and movement...violence and discrimination against women, including female genital mutilation (FGM); child abuse, including sexual violence and recruitment of child soldiers..."

ALGERIA - CHAIR OF THE UN GENERAL ASSEMBLY'S LEGAL (SIXTH) COMMITTEE
[June 10] Algeria was elected Chairperson of the UN's Legal Committee, known as the Sixth Committee. This body, composed of representatives of all 192 states, is the General Assembly's "primary forum for the consideration of legal questions." Here is how Algeria "fulfills" the Sixth Committee mandate:

US State Department's Country Report on Human Rights Practices 2008, Algeria:
"[T]he president exercises supreme judicial authority, and executive branch decrees and influence limited judicial independence...[A]uthorities did not completely respect legal provisions regarding defendants' rights and denied due process. The High Judicial Council is responsible for judicial discipline and the appointment of all judges. President Bouteflika serves as the president of the council...Legal decisions regarding family matters are based on Shari'a (Islamic law) as well as civil law...The judiciary...lacked independence in human rights cases. Family connections and status of the parties involved reportedly influenced decisions."

IRAN - A VICE-CHAIR OF THE UN GENERAL ASSEMBLY'S LEGAL (SIXTH) COMMITTEE
[June 10] Iran was elected a Vice-Chair of the of the UN's Legal Committee, known as the Sixth Committee. This body, composed of representatives of all 192 states, is the General Assembly's "primary forum for the consideration of legal questions." Here is how Iran "fulfills" the Sixth Committee mandate:

US State Department's Country Report on Human Rights Practices 2008, Iran:
"[T]he court system was corrupt and subject to government and religious influence...[T]he head of the judiciary shall be a cleric chosen by the supreme leader. The head of the Supreme Court and prosecutor general also must be clerics. Women continued to be barred from serving as certain types of judges...Defendants did not have the right to confront their accusers, and were not granted access to government-held evidence...Revolutionary court judges were chosen in part due to their ideological commitment to the system. Authorities often charged individuals with undefined crimes, such as "antirevolutionary behavior," "moral corruption," and "siding with global arrogance."...Secret or summary trials of only five minutes' duration occurred frequently. Other trials were deliberately designed to publicize a coerced confession..."

What do you know, they're all Muslim nations. Go figure.

Please provide non-biblical proof of your claim that 'Jesus' is 'God' and that he is "alive today".[/b][/color]

Non-Biblical proof will be when you stand before Him.

There was no statement from em saying that they shouldn't be in ministries.

What is the point of your question ?

Why are you so agitated about his involvement with this group?

Please provide your proof that it is "a statement of fact".

Your misrepresentation of the Luke passage as if Jesus was commanding Christians to kill unbelievers, which He never did and which isn't happening today among the world's billion+ believers.

Your assumption of "hate" is noted.

Do you have any proof that I in fact hate anything at all ?

If so, please provide the proof that you have.

Want to answer my question? Do you capitalize the word 'Islam'?

I have already provided you with them.

No, you've made a failed attempt at trying to criminalize political disagreement.

Google it. It's called research.

You do the research, you're the one making the bizarre claim. Your wacky theories aren't exactly common knowledge.

Please show proof to your assertion that there has been any effort to "free Afghanistan" by sponsoring the Taliban which the allied forces are now fighting against.

The Soviets were expelled long ago. I suppose to you the US efforts in this are another example of expansionism.

Further to this, you could also find out that the U.S.A. has been using depleted uranium internationally in contravention of international law.

I don't don't give a rat's behind about international law. It has no standing here. SCOTUS Justice Scalia said so, since you seem to be impressed with judge's opinions.

You appear to have a fixation with the word "hate". Please provide any proof at all that I "hate the USA".

Your hostility is well-documented on this thread.

Also, please provide proof to your assertion that "the rest of the world is breaking their necks to get here".[/b][/color]

Once again I have to explain the obvious to you. FYI, we have fences on our southern border to keep people out, in contrast with atheistic communist regimes that needed fences to keep people in. Not only are some breaking their necks to get here, some are dying in the attempt.

[micatala]

Moderator Intervention

The level of rhetoric and personal commentary is getting out of hand between East of Eden and I AM ALL I AM.

I don't don't give a rat's behind about international law.

>>>>>>>>>>>>
Your hostility is well-documented on this thread.

Let's avoid the personal remarks, like the last one.

Your attempts to justify your 'God's' bloodthirsty nature lacks any logic and is equivalent of supporting any other mass murderer throughout human history.

The throw in nature of this comment comes across as inflammatory.

[Kadmon]

President-Elect Obama and the Future of US Foreign Policy: A Roundtable Discussion
Congratulations pour in from around the world for President-elect Barack Obama after his historic victory Tuesday night. But what are Obama’s foreign policy positions, and what are the concerns for those living in countries at the target end of US foreign policy? We host a roundtable discussion with filmmaker and investigative journalist John Pilger in Britain, Columbia University professor and Africa scholar Mahmood Mamdani, Laura Carlsen of the Center for International Policy in Mexico City, Iraqi analyst Raed Jarrar, Pakistani author Tariq Ali, and Palestinian American Ali Abunimah of Electronic Intifada



John Pilger, Australian investigative journalist, bestselling author, and documentary filmmaker. His latest book is Freedom Next Time: Resisting the Empire, and his most recent film is called The War on Democracy.

Mahmood Mamdani, Professor of Government and Anthropology at Columbia University. He has written extensively on post-colonial African politics, and his most recent book is Good Muslim, Bad Muslim: America, the Cold War and the Roots of Terror. His latest article for The Nation magazine focuses on recent events in Darfur and is called “The New Humanitarian Order.�

Ali Abunimah, author of One Country: A Bold Proposal to End the Israeli-Palestinian Impasse and co-founder of The Electronic Intifada

Laura Carlsen, director of the Mexico City-based Americas Policy Program of the Center for International Policy. She has written extensively on US relations with Latin America.

Tariq Ali, veteran journalist, commentator and activist. He was born in Lahore, Pakistan and lives in London. He has written over a dozen books and is on the editorial board of the New Left Review. His latest book is called The Duel: Pakistan on the Flight Path of American Power.

Raed Jarrar, Iraqi blogger and political analyst. He is the Iraq consultant for the American Friends Service Committee.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Congratulations are pouring in from around the world for President-elect Barack Obama after his historic victory Tuesday night. His diverse background is truly unique for a US president. With a mother from Kansas, a father from Kenya, a stepfather from Indonesia, and a middle name—Hussein—from the Middle East, Obama has sparked the imagination of people on every continent. In cities across Africa, people hailed the United States for electing Obama.


JOHNNY BENT, Johannesburg Resident: I think Obama is a good guy. And I just hope Obama will have influence in Africa, especially to develop us, to help us with the sickness and the AIDS and so on. So, especially it’s—at least he’s from Kenya. So I just hope there’s going to be a lot of influence in Africa to help us and support us and to come out as a new, new, new nation. Thank you.


BOLAJI ILORI, Nigerian Politician: For us, this is a threshold of history. It is a resurgence of hope for black man, and not just for black man, a triumph of democracy. For us, it’s a lesson in this country. We are trying now—we are struggling for open and democratic governance, for us to have flawless elections. We are happy we saw the loser congratulating the winner. For us, it’s good. But for us, Obama represents a new generation of ideas, of peace in the world.


FEMI OSHI, Johannesburg Resident: It’s not only the president of the United States of America; this is a black man in a black skin, ruling the world. And take it or leave it, he’s going to be the best thing in the history of the Americans.



JUAN GONZALEZ: In the Middle East, reactions to Obama’s victory were more cautious. From Iraq to Iran to the Occupied Territories, people called on Obama to change US foreign policy toward the region.


ALAA AL-ZERJAWI, Sadr City Resident: [translated] My message to the US president, Barack Obama, is to withdraw troops from our country. This is the first thing. We want him to be honest with us, because Bush has given many promises, but he did not fulfill any of them. We have suffered a lot from the occupation. Because of the occupation, there were divisions, sectarian conflicts, and now we want them to leave our country.


MOHAMMED ABU AWDA, Gaza Resident: [translated] We hope that he will help find a solution for the Palestinian cause and to end the siege, because we are really suffering. I hope we find a solution for the Palestinian cause, and everybody will live in peace.


HOSSEIN NAZARI, Iranian Student: My message to Obama, to Barack Obama, is that if you want your country—actually, if you want to have a good relationship with our country, with our politicians and with our government, you have to radically change your former policies towards Iran.



JUAN GONZALEZ: And in South Asia, in countries like Afghanistan and Pakistan, there was concern over the future of US foreign policy under a President Obama. In Afghanistan, where Obama has pledged to escalate the war, President Hamid Karzai called for an end to US air strikes in the country.


PRESIDENT HAMID KARZAI: [translated] Our demand is a change in strategy fighting terrorism. It means fighting against terrorism should not be in Afghanistan rural areas. Fighting against terrorism is not in our country. Our country is a victim of terrorism. And I wish that civilian casualties would be eliminated here. By bombing Afghanistan, the war against terrorism cannot be won. These are the important demands of Afghans. This is our first demand and our basic demand.


ARSHAD HUSSAIN, Pakistani Journalist: [translated] Pakistan should not expect much, because every US president has his own interest. The example is President Bush and many others who give aid to Pakistan but did not get much work done in return.



AMY GOODMAN: Today, we host a discussion on Obama’s foreign policy, particularly with respect to hotspots in the Middle East, in South Asia, Africa and Latin America. We’ll talk about the concerns and hopes of those who live in countries at the receiving end of American foreign policy.


We’re joined on the phone and through video stream in studios by a number of people. First, Australian investigative journalist, bestselling author, documentary filmmaker, John Pilger, joins us on the telephone from Britain, just back from the United States. His latest book is called Freedom Next Time: Resisting the Empire; his most recent film, The War on Democracy.


And we’re joined in our firehouse studio by Mahmood Mamdani. He is professor of government and anthropology at Columbia University and has written extensively on post-colonial African politics. His most recent book is Good Muslim, Bad Muslim: America, the Cold War and the Roots of Terror. His latest article for The Nation magazine focuses on recent events in Darfur and is called “The New Humanitarian Order.�


We’ll start with John Pilger in Britain. You were just in the United States in Houston. You’re back in London right now. Your response to the election of Barack Hussein Obama as president of the United States?


JOHN PILGER: Well, my response, Amy, is that really anyone was better than Bush and the Bush administration. Having experienced election night in the United States and then seeing the response here, I feel that it’s time that analysis and critical thinking took over and that those of us who wish to think that way, who wish to think critically, really should start addressing the—this rather manipulated emotional response. I don’t, in any way, cast doubt on the sincerity of the way people are speaking about the election of Obama around the world, although I think the reaction that you just played from the Middle East is rather more near the realism that is close to truth. But I do think we have to consider President-elect Obama as a man of the system.


Michael Moore had it right when he said the other day, let’s hope that Obama breaks all his election promises, as politicians generally do, because all his election promises, in terms of foreign policy, are a continuation of business as usual. And even if there is a return to what used to be called a multilateral world, I think there has to be critical analysis of the return to the pretensions of America as a peacemaker around the world. We had to endure this, and I mean endure it during the Clinton years, and I don’t think that we, in the rest of the world, ought to have to endure it now through the Obama years, so that we have a continuation, if you like, of liberalism as a divisive, almost war-making ideology, being used to destroy liberalism as a reality, because that has gone on under so-called liberal presidents, from Kennedy to Clinton, Democratic presidents. And President-elect Obama suggests to us, in his promises, that he is going to continue that, bombing Pakistan and Afghanistan.


Someone said to me—in fact, I was talking to my daughter when I got off the plane from Houston this morning, and she was—said, “What was it like over there?� And we were discussing it, and I said, “Well, it comes down to, I suppose, asking an Afghan child how they feel when their family has been destroyed by a 500-pound bunker-busting bomb dropped by the United States and dropped by President Obama, as he continues that war. I think that’s the reality that we really have to begin to discuss now, having celebrated, and rightly celebrated, the ascent of the first African American president of the United States.


JUAN GONZALEZ: And, John Pilger, what sign would you look for in these early days now, as Obama begins to move to a—in a transition period, that would indicate to you that he may be—he would be trying to break, in one way or other, from this neoliberalism of the Clinton years?


JOHN PILGER: Well, it’s difficult to know. Breaking from the Bush years is going to be the first, and I suppose breaking from the Bush years means actually talking to people and negotiating. I think breaking from, let’s say, the Democratic years—the Bush, yes—the Clinton years will mean giving us a sign that the ideological, rapacious, war-making machine that has been built over many years and reinforced, as perhaps never before during the eight years of Bush, that that ideological machine does not transcend a loss of electoral power. You see, that’s really the central issue here, that a kind of ideological consensus has been built under Bush. Now, yes, Obama has been voted in, but will that vote, will that—will a new president transcend the—this ideological machine?


Between—you know, during the campaign, there was almost nothing between McCain and Obama in foreign policy. Indeed, Obama went further. I mean, he even declared Jerusalem the capital of Israel. He threatened Latin America. He, at times, seemed to be going further than Bush. And, of course, people, realists, the so-called realists, would shake their heads and say, “Well, yes, he has to do that.�


Look, in answer to your question, I think he has to—in order to show that he is in any way different, he has to start dismantling this machine, for example, going against his promise to continue the embargo on Cuba, to drop that; to reach out to the governments of Venezuela and Bolivia and Ecuador, each of which is under attack, subversive attack by the United States; to face the reality that Afghanistan is a colonial war; and to not let the so-called withdrawal from Iraq be a sham, that it leaves these so-called enduring bases. That, any one of those, any change in one of those, would indicate that Obama is truly different.


AMY GOODMAN: We’re talking to John Pilger. His latest book, Freedom Next Time: Resisting the Empire; his latest film, The War on Democracy. When we come back, we’ll continue on our journey around the world, getting reaction to the new president of the United States, the President-elect, Barack Obama. This is Democracy Now! Back in a minute.


[break]


AMY GOODMAN: We are traveling the globe today, getting response to the election of Barack Obama. His father from Kenya, his mother from Kansas, he was born in Hawaii, grew up in Indonesia and Hawaii.


We’re turning now to Mahmood Mamdani, professor of government and anthropology at Columbia University. His most recent book, Good Muslim, Bad Muslim: America, the Cold War and the Roots of Terror. The latest piece in The Nation, “The New Humanitarian Order.� Your response to the election of Barack Obama?


MAHMOOD MAMDANI: Well, I think John Pilger has given a good account of the limits within which Obama will operate. And perhaps I should talk about the possibilities within those limits.


When the Cold War ended, the losing power in the Cold War, the Soviet Union, began a process of reform. The US never did begin a process of reform. Instead, it embarked on a war on terror after 9/11, in order to build on the military machine inherited from the Cold War. And the war on terror, we know, has been mainly an advertising campaign, a lethal advertising campaign. So I agree with Pilger that Obama’s first task is going to be to cut through this ideological sham and to bring the American people to face realities.


The most that Obama can contribute, within the context of being the president of an imperial power, is to recognize the changing world situation, to recognize that this is the end of the era of a single superpower, that the US will operate amongst several powers, that the US has to learn to live in the world rather than simply to occupy it.


And I think there are several indications from the campaign—I mean, the campaign was full of extreme and contradictory promises and provocations. But if you look on the side of the promises, there are indications that this is within the realm of the possible. There is the discussion of the need to speak to the president of Iran without any preconditions. There is that remarkable primary debate with Hillary and Edwards, where a reporter asked the three of them who would Martin Luther King support on this day, and Hillary and Edwards responded by convincing the audience why King would have supported them. And Obama responded by saying King would not have supported anybody, that King would have organized his movement to push the winning candidate to pursue the objectives. Well, that’s the real question now in the US today.


There was a movement, a youth movement, to elect Obama. Will that movement dissolve itself? Will that movement build itself now around the objectives for which it organized? Will America recognize, as I believe South Africa has after the election of Mandela, that the election of Mandela was not change, but an opportunity to change? And whether that opportunity is realized and transformed into a program of social justice within the country and peace abroad will depend on the movement that pushes Obama and gives him the opportunity to respond to it.


For More Information Go To Democracy Now!.Org | Radio and TV News

[MagusYanam]

There was an earlier, mild form of Islam in the Koran which was replaced by the violent murderous one the Jihadists follow today.

I don't think the Christian just war theory ever covered killing those who weren't Christians, and it never targeting one race for killing as Islam does with Jews both in the Koran and its deeds today.

Again, you are employing an outrageous double standard. One could just as easily say there was once an earlier, peaceful version of Christianity which was replaced by the violent murderous one the First Crusaders, the Spanish conquistadors, the Manifest Destined, the IRA, the Spanish Falangists and Slobadan Milosevic's death squads followed.

And no, Christian Just War theory never covered killing non-Christians, but that didn't exactly stop Charlemagne's 'Christian' armies from killing and raping my ancestors for worshipping Thor and Odin, nor did it stop the Central and Eastern European 'Christians' from terrorising and committing pogroms against the communities of certain other of my ancestors for worshipping Ha'Shem El Adonoj.

It should also be noted that I have had a number of Muslim friends, coworkers and teachers who have never attempted to kill me for being an ethnic Jew / religious Christian. And it hasn't been for my want of being vocal about either.

President-Elect Obama and the Future of US Foreign Policy: A Roundtable Discussion
Congratulations pour in from around the world for President-elect Barack Obama after his historic victory Tuesday night. But what are Obama’s foreign policy positions, and what are the concerns for those living in countries at the target end of US foreign policy?

tl;dr

[East of Eden]

Again, you are employing an outrageous double standard. One could just as easily say there was once an earlier, peaceful version of Christianity which was replaced by the violent murderous one the First Crusaders,

A counteroffensive against Muslim agression. I wish it had been more successful.

the Spanish conquistadors,

A clash of civilizations. I'm glad the Spanish won, and put an end to the Axtec death-cult which cut the hearts out of hundreds of thousands of victims.

the Manifest Destined,

Another clash of civilizations I'm glad we won.

the IRA,

This is tribalism. Some of the leaders on both sides are agnostic.

the Spanish Falangists

I'm glad Franco won that conflict rather than the Stalinists he was opposing. Look at it in context.

and Slobadan Milosevic's death squads followed.

Again, you have to look at in the context of the struggle with the Muslims. This was again tribalism, and not a following of Christ's teachings. What you are ignoring is that the Jihadists are following the word and deed of the 'prophet'.

And no, Christian Just War theory never covered killing non-Christians, but that didn't exactly stop Charlemagne's 'Christian' armies from killing and raping my ancestors for worshipping Thor and Odin, nor did it stop the Central and Eastern European 'Christians' from terrorising and committing pogroms against the communities of certain other of my ancestors for worshipping Ha'Shem El Adonoj.

Again, these acts were done in spite of the teachings of Christ, not because of them.

It should also be noted that I have had a number of Muslim friends, coworkers and teachers who have never attempted to kill me for being an ethnic Jew / religious Christian. And it hasn't been for my want of being vocal about either.

So that somehow proves there is no threat from radical Islam? Of course your Muslim friends are harmless in the US. As a Sudanese Anglican bishop put it, where Muslims are in the minority (US) they are peaceful and hardworking. Where they have parity (Nigeria) they are aggressive. Where they are the majority (Saudi Arabia, Pakistan) they will kill you.

[I AM ALL I AM]

Millions terrorized by Christian Militants in Africa

The Lord's Resistance Army (LRA) has waged a bloody war in northern Uganda since 1987, to replace President Yoweri Museveni's government with one based on the Biblical Ten Commandments.

Up to 12,000 people have been killed in the violence, with many more dying from disease and malnutrition as a direct result of the conflict. Nearly two million civilians have been forced to flee their homes, living in internally displaced person (IDP) camps and within the safety of larger settlements, sleeping on street corners and in other public spaces.

It is estimated that around 20,000 children have been kidnapped by the group since 1987 for use as soldiers and sex slaves.

http://www.christianaggression.org/item ... e=articles


SAFF Review of Witch-Child, A BBC2 Investigation Into How Young Children are Being Abused and Tortured in Christian Exorcism Ceremonies

Broadcast April 4, 2006, BBC2

This was a courageous piece of reporting by Richard Hoskins with some highly emotional images including the cutting of little children's stomachs with razor blades to 'let the demons out'. It would have been a breath of fresh-air in a debate poisoned by prejudice had it not been hamstrung from the start with an entirely incorrect premise. It was the fundamentalist Christians who were beating, abusing, torturing and killing children as a by-product of their belief in possession and this had nothing whatsoever to do with the native African religious belief system.

http://www.patregan.freeuk.com/witch_child.htm


Saving Africa's Witch Children part 1
www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUJSME0TORw

[East of Eden]

Millions terrorized by Christian Militants in Africa

The Lord's Resistance Army (LRA) has waged a bloody war in northern Uganda since 1987, to replace President Yoweri Museveni's government with one based on the Biblical Ten Commandments.

Up to 12,000 people have been killed in the violence, with many more dying from disease and malnutrition as a direct result of the conflict. Nearly two million civilians have been forced to flee their homes, living in internally displaced person (IDP) camps and within the safety of larger settlements, sleeping on street corners and in other public spaces.

It is estimated that around 20,000 children have been kidnapped by the group since 1987 for use as soldiers and sex slaves.

http://www.christianaggression.org/item ... e=articles


SAFF Review of Witch-Child, A BBC2 Investigation Into How Young Children are Being Abused and Tortured in Christian Exorcism Ceremonies

Broadcast April 4, 2006, BBC2

This was a courageous piece of reporting by Richard Hoskins with some highly emotional images including the cutting of little children's stomachs with razor blades to 'let the demons out'. It would have been a breath of fresh-air in a debate poisoned by prejudice had it not been hamstrung from the start with an entirely incorrect premise. It was the fundamentalist Christians who were beating, abusing, torturing and killing children as a by-product of their belief in possession and this had nothing whatsoever to do with the native African religious belief system.

http://www.patregan.freeuk.com/witch_child.htm


Saving Africa's Witch Children part 1
www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUJSME0TORw

Doesn't sound like they have much to do with Christianity. From Wikipedia: "The group adheres to a syncretistic[4] blend of Christianity, Mysticism,[5] Islam,[6][7][8] Ugandan traditional religion,[9] and witchcraft." Evern if they were Christian, what's your point about the 12,000 killed? Do I get to bring up the 100,000,000 victims of atheistic Communism?