Something Bad Jesus Did

[Ben Masada]

Something Bad Jesus Did


Once, I was asked if there was anything bad Jesus did in his life. I thought for
a while and the following came to my mind:

Yes, there was something Jesus did, which I wish he had not done, because it
does not represent well the People he belonged to.

Once a Gentile Canaanite mother was crying after him, asking for her daughter to
be cured, and Jesus would not give a damn about her. His disciples told him to do
something for that woman or discard her, because she was making them go crazy
with her non-stop crying.

What did Jesus say? I haven't come for Gentiles but ONLY for the House of
Israel. Then, kept on going and the woman kept on crying and following him.

When he could not take any longer, he stopped and told her something like: Hey,
listen, what do you want from me? To cure my daughter Master. No way, I cannot
take of the food of the children and throw it unto the dogs.

He meant the Jews for the children, and the Gentiles for the dogs. But only
after the woman understood and recognized her condition of dog, by saying that
the dogs also feed from the crumbles that fall from the table of the children,
Jesus saw that he would never get rid of that woman. So, he changed his mind and
cured her daughter. Then, to erase a little the impression left on her for being
forced to recognize her doggy condition, he mentioned something about her strong
faith and left.

That was terrible, if we can imagine what that poor woman went through till she
got what she wanted. The text is in Matthew 15:21-28.

Ben

[kayky]

After everything you have experienced, I am impressed that you still want anything to do with religion at all. As far as "moving on" is concerned, I would like to elaborate by saying we must carry the burden of our past with us as we move on. Sometimes there is no redemption.

[kayky]

Your mention of all those different Jewish traditions reminded me that almost everything I know about Judaism I've learned from Chiam Potok. I have read all of his novels. My favorites (among my favorite novels ever) are My Name Is Asher Lev and Davita's Harp.

[Jonah]

I think the Jewish instinct is that redemption is a decision, a choice that occurs in the I-Thou relationship...Thou being Buber's Jewish existentialist speak for God/reality. Now, that's not the way most ordinary Jews talk.

But, there still seems to be this dialogue thing that goes on between Jews and God that is about redemption...out of the Exodus...out of the Babylonian captivity...out of the oppression of the Greek and Roman empires...out of the Holocaust. Jews have had to make a choice to pursue and embrace redemption time after time. And never forget.

Elie Wiesel's most important story of the Nazi death camps is the day Jews put God on trial in the camp. Evidence was given for and against God, and God was found guilty, and sentenced. After the trial, everyone went on to normal prayers to God. I think that is the most radical Jewish insight that is most of the time lost on a gentile audience....that resurrection is not, for the Jew..and in the original conception of resurrection in Jewish culture, a passive event that just happens to the Jew. There is a funny tradition that the reason why Jews must be buried in wooden coffins is so that when the day of resurrection comes, they can kick out the ends of the coffins and tunnel underground all the way to Jerusalem. Now, that's cooperative resurrection!

The other thing I've never heard a Christian comment on are is in regard to the resurrection stories in the NT before Jesus's. You have the raising of Jairus's daughter and the raising of Lazarus. In both cases, Jesus speaks to the dead and commands them to rise. He's talking to dead people...which betrays an entirely Jewish sense of personhood (no body/soul split) and the dialogical aspect of the human-divine relationship (not that Jesus was divine) in the event. This is different from the notion that one "rises" in a heavenly afterworld or in some purely spiritual sense.

Again, my feeling is the Jewish resurrection including Jesus's sense of it is a matter of justice. Before resurrection emerged as a major idea in Judaism, there was no notion of resurrection being the remedy for getting sick and dying or having a camel fall on you and taking you out. It was only in the crucible of unspeakable injustice that resurrection...physical bodily resurrection emerged as perhaps the only remedy to redeem both the oppressed and the divine-human relationship. That's the historical matrix of it. Now, today many Jews have gone back to the Sadducean belief in no physical resurrection or afterlife. You find a lot of that in the Reform movement. Although, my past rabbi...as "modern" as he is, said one day that he personally holds open the possibility of a physical resurrection.....in THIS world...not a spiritual heaven...but here. Now, that's chutzpah.

Oh, on my church experiences as a pastor....I could write the memoir from hades. And I got off better than a lot of my clergy friends. Clergy world, Christian or Jewish, is a very very dangerous place.

[Ben Masada]

After everything you have experienced, I am impressed that you still want anything to do with religion at all. As far as "moving on" is concerned, I would like to elaborate by saying we must carry the burden of our past with us as we move on. Sometimes there is no redemption.

I don't recall to have told you what I have experienced. Could it be mistaken identity?

[Ben Masada]

I think the Jewish instinct is that redemption is a decision, a choice that occurs in the I-Thou relationship...Thou being Buber's Jewish existentialist speak for God/reality. Now, that's not the way most ordinary Jews talk.

But, there still seems to be this dialogue thing that goes on between Jews and God that is about redemption...out of the Exodus...out of the Babylonian captivity...out of the oppression of the Greek and Roman empires...out of the Holocaust. Jews have had to make a choice to pursue and embrace redemption time after time. And never forget.

Elie Wiesel's most important story of the Nazi death camps is the day Jews put God on trial in the camp. Evidence was given for and against God, and God was found guilty, and sentenced. After the trial, everyone went on to normal prayers to God. I think that is the most radical Jewish insight that is most of the time lost on a gentile audience....that resurrection is not, for the Jew..and in the original conception of resurrection in Jewish culture, a passive event that just happens to the Jew. There is a funny tradition that the reason why Jews must be buried in wooden coffins is so that when the day of resurrection comes, they can kick out the ends of the coffins and tunnel underground all the way to Jerusalem. Now, that's cooperative resurrection!

The other thing I've never heard a Christian comment on are is in regard to the resurrection stories in the NT before Jesus's. You have the raising of Jairus's daughter and the raising of Lazarus. In both cases, Jesus speaks to the dead and commands them to rise. He's talking to dead people...which betrays an entirely Jewish sense of personhood (no body/soul split) and the dialogical aspect of the human-divine relationship (not that Jesus was divine) in the event. This is different from the notion that one "rises" in a heavenly afterworld or in some purely spiritual sense.

Again, my feeling is the Jewish resurrection including Jesus's sense of it is a matter of justice. Before resurrection emerged as a major idea in Judaism, there was no notion of resurrection being the remedy for getting sick and dying or having a camel fall on you and taking you out. It was only in the crucible of unspeakable injustice that resurrection...physical bodily resurrection emerged as perhaps the only remedy to redeem both the oppressed and the divine-human relationship. That's the historical matrix of it. Now, today many Jews have gone back to the Sadducean belief in no physical resurrection or afterlife. You find a lot of that in the Reform movement. Although, my past rabbi...as "modern" as he is, said one day that he personally holds open the possibility of a physical resurrection.....in THIS world...not a spiritual heaven...but here. Now, that's chutzpah.

Oh, on my church experiences as a pastor....I could write the memoir from hades. And I got off better than a lot of my clergy friends. Clergy world, Christian or Jewish, is a very very dangerous place.

I find very hard to accept that intelligent and learnt Jews like the Pharisees would believe in physical resurrection. I am sure the resurrection they believed was according to Ezekiel 37:12. Otherwise, they would have to deal with contradictions in the Tanach, which is very clear about the fact that once dead no one will ever return.

Now, you made me curious why or how the clergy world, either Christian or Jewish is very dangerous. Would you elaborate?

[Ben Masada]

Your mention of all those different Jewish traditions reminded me that almost everything I know about Judaism I've learned from Chiam Potok. I have read all of his novels. My favorites (among my favorite novels ever) are My Name Is Asher Lev and Davita's Harp.

From Potok I have seen only "The Fiddle on the Roof."

[kayky]

After everything you have experienced, I am impressed that you still want anything to do with religion at all. As far as "moving on" is concerned, I would like to elaborate by saying we must carry the burden of our past with us as we move on. Sometimes there is no redemption.

I don't recall to have told you what I have experienced. Could it be mistaken identity?

I was responding to Jonah, Ben--not you.

[kayky]

From Potok I have seen only "The Fiddle on the Roof."

Potok did not write The Fiddler on the Roof.

[Carico]

Something Bad Jesus Did


Once, I was asked if there was anything bad Jesus did in his life. I thought for
a while and the following came to my mind:

Yes, there was something Jesus did, which I wish he had not done, because it
does not represent well the People he belonged to.

Once a Gentile Canaanite mother was crying after him, asking for her daughter to
be cured, and Jesus would not give a damn about her. His disciples told him to do
something for that woman or discard her, because she was making them go crazy
with her non-stop crying.

What did Jesus say? I haven't come for Gentiles but ONLY for the House of
Israel. Then, kept on going and the woman kept on crying and following him.

When he could not take any longer, he stopped and told her something like: Hey,
listen, what do you want from me? To cure my daughter Master. No way, I cannot
take of the food of the children and throw it unto the dogs.

He meant the Jews for the children, and the Gentiles for the dogs. But only
after the woman understood and recognized her condition of dog, by saying that
the dogs also feed from the crumbles that fall from the table of the children,
Jesus saw that he would never get rid of that woman. So, he changed his mind and
cured her daughter. Then, to erase a little the impression left on her for being
forced to recognize her doggy condition, he mentioned something about her strong
faith and left.

That was terrible, if we can imagine what that poor woman went through till she
got what she wanted. The text is in Matthew 15:21-28.

Ben

Sorry friend, but Jesus didn't change his mind. He was testing the faith of the woman for these reasons:

1) To show that we must not stop asking God
2) To show that even though God chose the Jews first, Jesus even reached out to the Gentiles before the Jews rejected him.

[Ben Masada]

Something Bad Jesus Did


Sorry friend, but Jesus didn't change his mind. He was testing the faith of the woman for these reasons:

1) To show that we must not stop asking God
2) To show that even though God chose the Jews first, Jesus even reached out to the Gentiles before the Jews rejected him.

I am sorry too friend, but 1) How, as a dog or as children? and 2) Take a look at Matthew 15:24. It says in there. Jesus said to the Jews only and not first. Who replaced only with first? Now, would you quote where Jesus reached out to the Gentiles before the Jews? On the contrary, he would forbid his disciples to take his gospel to Gentiles or even enter a Samaritan town. (Mat. 10:6)