The Trinity Who came first???

[muhammad rasullah]

Many discussion have been done about the trinity and the fundamental concept of who God is and how we should understand him to be. The christians say God is three in one Father, Son , and holy spirit. Over the years many have struggled including christians themselves with the concept of the trinity to the point that they have concluded that its a mystery of God. The basic struggle of this concept comes when we ask the question that if these three are one in unity being equal then which one came first? Was it the father? Was it Jesus? Or was it the holy spirit? To christians this may seem as a illogical question but do not laugh because to many the idea of three distinctly separate entities being one always existing from the beginning is very strange and hard to grasp. It is clearly stated in the gospels that jesus was dependent upon the father. Jesus prayed, Jesus did not come to do his will but his fathers and so on. So the topic to be discussed is who came first in the trinity? Please use evidence to support your claim!

P.S. I am not suggesting that someone or something brought God into being I am posing the question to simply Who was there in the beginning first? Who is recognized as the eternal?

[dunsapy]

How can you go from saying that the word trinity doesn't appear in the bible then quote a verse with the word Jehova. The word Jehova doesn't appear either just so you know. There is no "J" in the hebrew language. Jesus, John, Jonah, jacob are all wrong that was never their real names.
Now if Jesus was the son of God and he created everything after him then why does the bible not mention him by name in Genesis when the creation of man and the universe is mentioned? It says and God did so and so not jesus. Also if jesus is the first of creation why again is that not mentioed in genesis with the creation story? it seems odd to me that this is not done and mentioned until thousands of years later. I dont believe Abraham believed that jesus was the first of creation nor the son of God.

(Je‧ho′vah) [the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Heb. verb ha‧wah′ (become); meaning “He Causes to Become�].

“Jehovah� is the best known English pronunciation of the divine name, although “Yahweh� is favored by most Hebrew scholars. The oldest Hebrew manuscripts present the name in the form of four consonants, commonly called the Tetragrammaton (from Greek te‧tra-, meaning “four,� and gram′ma, “letter�). These four letters (written from right to left) are יהוה and may be transliterated into English as YHWH (or, JHVH)


Since certainty of pronunciation is not now attainable, there seems to be no reason for abandoning in English the well-known form “Jehovah� in favor of some other suggested pronunciation. If such a change were made, then, to be consistent, changes should be made in the spelling and pronunciation of a host of other names found in the Scriptures: Jeremiah would be changed to Yir‧meyah′, Isaiah would become Yesha‛‧ya′hu, and Jesus would be either Yehoh‧shu′a‛ (as in Hebrew) or I‧e‧sous′ (as in Greek). The purpose of words is to transmit thoughts; in English the name Jehovah identifies the true God, transmitting this thought more satisfactorily today than any of the suggested substitutes.

In the OT, the name appears, over 6,000 times. But over time superstition, around God's name, came into being, and was replaced by translators, with the title LORD,and Lord .

If you go to this site, the OT is translated in a Greek / Hebrew interlinear Bible .
You have to download a little program , because of the characters in Greek and Hebrew. If you do this you will be able to see where the translators replaced God's name with the title LORD.
http://www.scripture4all.org/

(Jer‧e‧mi′ah) [possibly, Jehovah Exalts; or, Jehovah Loosens [likely from the womb]].
(Jo‧an′an) [shortened form of Jehohanan, meaning “Jehovah Has Shown Favor; Jehovah Has Been Gracious�].

(Jon′a‧than) [Jehovah Has Given].

(Hal‧le‧lu′jah)“praise Jah, you people. ( Jah is the sort form of Jehovah)

Je′sus) [Lat. form of the Gr. I‧e‧sous′, which corresponds to the Heb. Ye‧shu′a‛ or Yehoh‧shu′a‛ and means “Jehovah Is Salvation�].

These are just some names and what they mean.

[muhammad rasullah]

How can you go from saying that the word trinity doesn't appear in the bible then quote a verse with the word Jehova. The word Jehova doesn't appear either just so you know. There is no "J" in the hebrew language. Jesus, John, Jonah, jacob are all wrong that was never their real names.
Now if Jesus was the son of God and he created everything after him then why does the bible not mention him by name in Genesis when the creation of man and the universe is mentioned? It says and God did so and so not jesus. Also if jesus is the first of creation why again is that not mentioed in genesis with the creation story? it seems odd to me that this is not done and mentioned until thousands of years later. I dont believe Abraham believed that jesus was the first of creation nor the son of God.

(Je‧ho′vah) [the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Heb. verb ha‧wah′ (become); meaning “He Causes to Become�].

“Jehovah� is the best known English pronunciation of the divine name, although “Yahweh� is favored by most Hebrew scholars. The oldest Hebrew manuscripts present the name in the form of four consonants, commonly called the Tetragrammaton (from Greek te‧tra-, meaning “four,� and gram′ma, “letter�). These four letters (written from right to left) are יהוה and may be transliterated into English as YHWH (or, JHVH)


Since certainty of pronunciation is not now attainable, there seems to be no reason for abandoning in English the well-known form “Jehovah� in favor of some other suggested pronunciation. If such a change were made, then, to be consistent, changes should be made in the spelling and pronunciation of a host of other names found in the Scriptures: Jeremiah would be changed to Yir‧meyah′, Isaiah would become Yesha‛‧ya′hu, and Jesus would be either Yehoh‧shu′a‛ (as in Hebrew) or I‧e‧sous′ (as in Greek). The purpose of words is to transmit thoughts; in English the name Jehovah identifies the true God, transmitting this thought more satisfactorily today than any of the suggested substitutes.

In the OT, the name appears, over 6,000 times. But over time superstition, around God's name, came into being, and was replaced by translators, with the title LORD,and Lord .

If you go to this site, the OT is translated in a Greek / Hebrew interlinear Bible .
You have to download a little program , because of the characters in Greek and Hebrew. If you do this you will be able to see where the translators replaced God's name with the title LORD.
http://www.scripture4all.org/

(Jer‧e‧mi′ah) [possibly, Jehovah Exalts; or, Jehovah Loosens [likely from the womb]].
(Jo‧an′an) [shortened form of Jehohanan, meaning “Jehovah Has Shown Favor; Jehovah Has Been Gracious�].

(Jon′a‧than) [Jehovah Has Given].

(Hal‧le‧lu′jah)“praise Jah, you people. ( Jah is the sort form of Jehovah)

Je′sus) [Lat. form of the Gr. I‧e‧sous′, which corresponds to the Heb. Ye‧shu′a‛ or Yehoh‧shu′a‛ and means “Jehovah Is Salvation�].

These are just some names and what they mean.

The reason for abandoning the term Jehovah is because that's not the name. This is the sickness that the christians have when translating the bible this "J" walking. almost everywhere where there is a "Y" in the hebrew they translate it as a "J" in the english to make it appear more latinized. This change makes the person seem English and denotes the origin of the name. So now Jesus is seen as a white man with long blonde hair which that would be the least likely of his appearance because of the area he is from. So instead of Yaqub they change his name to Jacob, Instead of Yeheshua or Eesaa they translate it as Jesus, Yohanah is now John, Yahweh is Jehova, Yusuf translated as Joseph, this is done to make the name appear more western.

But you have no right to translate names of people! The name stays the same when you translate it.

Since certainty of pronunciation is not now attainable,

Says who? There is certainty that Jesus was never called Jesus during his time, John was never called John, Jacob, Joseph those names where never used by the people themselves no one ever called them that. They jews never called Yahweh Jehova.

b]If such a change were made[/b], then, to be consistent, changes should be made in the spelling and pronunciation of a host of other names found in the Scriptures

Then why not do it if that is there names. If Jesus where to return today and someone called him Jesus he wouldn't know who they were talking to because that isn't his name and he most likely wouldn't respond.
How does Yohanan become John? In another language if I called you by how your name is translated in that language would you accept that as your name?

And again I don't believe that Abraham believed Jesus to be the second part in a Trinity or Triune God or whatever term is put to it. And no christian can prove that he did.

[muhammad rasullah]

"The Trinity idea is a pagan idea. It was forced by Constantine , about 300 years after Christ died."
------
Not really.
It is taught in Genesis.

Let us make man in our image.
God made man in his own image.

Us=plural
our=plural
his own=singular

And notice how the plural
us and our
have a singular image!

Jesus is the image of God.
We were made in his image.
Did Jesus not say he was before Abraham?

I thought God was invisible! Col 1:15.
Does something that is invisible have an image? Can it?
Also i thought Jesus was God. Is he the image of himself?
God is the image of God?

[dunsapy]

Then why not do it if that is there names. If Jesus where to return today and someone called him Jesus he wouldn't know who they were talking to because that isn't his name and he most likely wouldn't respond.
How does Yohanan become John? In another language if I called you by how your name is translated in that language would you accept that as your name?

And again I don't believe that Abraham believed Jesus to be the second part in a Trinity or Triune God or whatever term is put to it. And no christian can prove that he did.

The Tetragrammaton occurs 6,828 times in the Hebrew text printed in Biblia Hebraica and Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia.

The bible says that God wanted man to use his name.

Isa 42:8 “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.
He wanted us to use his name, different languages would pronounce it differently.
But the name was to be used.

[muhammad rasullah]

Then why not do it if that is there names. If Jesus where to return today and someone called him Jesus he wouldn't know who they were talking to because that isn't his name and he most likely wouldn't respond.
How does Yohanan become John? In another language if I called you by how your name is translated in that language would you accept that as your name?

And again I don't believe that Abraham believed Jesus to be the second part in a Trinity or Triune God or whatever term is put to it. And no christian can prove that he did.

The Tetragrammaton occurs 6,828 times in the Hebrew text printed in Biblia Hebraica and Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia.

The bible says that God wanted man to use his name.

Isa 42:8 “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.
He wanted us to use his name, different languages would pronounce it differently.
But the name was to be used.

If that is his name then why are christians calling God Jesus and the Father when he said my name is Yahweh. It says no one will he give his glory I think that includes Jesus.
Again there is no "J" in the hebrew language. When you call someone by name you don't change it according to what language you speak. If i went to Puerto Rico and told the people my name is Donald they have no right to call me whatever my name would be in spanish because that isn't my name it's Donald. And the same pertains to this case with Yahweh. And the bible doesn't say Jehovah it says Yahweh. When scripture is translated words are translated according to there meaning in another language but this is and should not be done with names because it robs the person of there identity.

Again this thread about who came first in the trinity or who is first in the trinity the bible doesn't mention jesus as being first. But Jesus said that John 14:28 "the father is greater than I" John 5:30 " I can of mine own self do nothing...Because I seek not my own will but the father who sent me" John 13:16 "the servant is not greater than his lord, neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him"

Is Jesus greater than the Father? NO! John 14:28
Was Jesus sent? Yes! John 5:30
Who was Jesus sent by? The Father! John 5:30
Is he greater than the one who sent him? NO! John 13:16
So therefore is He God? NO!

[InTheFlesh]

"The Trinity idea is a pagan idea. It was forced by Constantine , about 300 years after Christ died."
------
Not really.
It is taught in Genesis.

Let us make man in our image.
God made man in his own image.

Us=plural
our=plural
his own=singular

And notice how the plural
us and our
have a singular image!

Jesus is the image of God.
We were made in his image.
Did Jesus not say he was before Abraham?

I thought God was invisible! Col 1:15.
Does something that is invisible have an image? Can it?
Also i thought Jesus was God. Is he the image of himself?
God is the image of God?

You still with that?

Have you ever read in the bible
God was manifest in the flesh?
There's your answer.
If a Spirit manifests itself
in a human form
it becomes an image.
While in Spirit form
it is invisible to the human eye.

I understand your elementary point that something invisible does not have an image. But God is a Spirit. We are talking about an invisible Spirit that is God himself. Can he not manifest himself and create an image? Is he not God?

According to the bible,
God made man in his own image.
Therefore God has an image.
Jesus is the image of the invisible God.
Jesus is God!

[muhammad rasullah]

"The Trinity idea is a pagan idea. It was forced by Constantine , about 300 years after Christ died."
------
Not really.
It is taught in Genesis.

Let us make man in our image.
God made man in his own image.

Us=plural
our=plural
his own=singular

And notice how the plural
us and our
have a singular image!

Jesus is the image of God.
We were made in his image.
Did Jesus not say he was before Abraham?

I thought God was invisible! Col 1:15.
Does something that is invisible have an image? Can it?
Also i thought Jesus was God. Is he the image of himself?
God is the image of God?

You still with that?

Have you ever read in the bible
God was manifest in the flesh?
There's your answer.
If a Spirit manifests itself
in a human form
it becomes an image.
While in Spirit form
it is invisible to the human eye.

I understand your elementary point that something invisible does not have an image. But God is a Spirit. We are talking about an invisible Spirit that is God himself. Can he not manifest himself and create an image? Is he not God?

According to the bible,
God made man in his own image.
Therefore God has an image.
Jesus is the image of the invisible God.
Jesus is God!

Yes I would so let's start from the beginning.
Genesis says 1:27 So God created man in his image...
John 1:1 says In the beginning was the word...and the word was God.
John 1:14 And the word was made flesh and dwelt among us.
In the beginning God was invisible before according to the bible the word was made flesh. Correct.
Question: When did the word become flesh? Genesis never says that the word became flesh before God made man in his image. According to the bible.
Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God...

It says in John that the word was made flesh and dwelt among us. When did this happen? At the time when his mother Mary was pregnant and gave birth to him.

So the Word wasn't made flesh until after Mary became pregnant and gave birth to him. Now isn't Jesus supposed to be the image man was created in if Jesus is God? From what the bible says The Word wasn't given form or made flesh until Jesus dwelt among us John 1:14.

So my question still remains. Let me put a little emphasis on it.
In the beginning is God and he is invisible. He creates the earth, and all that stuff then he creates man.
Question: You believe Jesus was created or made manifest first then Jesus created everything else right. That's what it says in Col 1:16. So my question is, How did Jesus exist in the beginning with God? Was he in the flesh, was he a grown man, or a baby how did he exist?
If you say Jesus was in the flesh then show where it says that in the bible. He existed in the flesh in the beginning with the father.
If he did not exist in the flesh then according to the bible he wasn't made flesh until his mother Mary gave birth to him.
Therefore there is no image to create man from since God is invisible.

So what is the image of something invisible?
The question is not elementary as you would like to presume it to be. Please don't underestimate the validity of the question.

[brandonspiritualpower]

Here is my belief. I believe that the trinity was not "first" in any part of it because I believe it is eternal. I do believe that because of the concept of the relationship centrality of mankind there was never separation between the trinity but eternal union.

With one father you have a man connected to himself.

With a son added to existence with the father you have two people connected to themselves, and each other therefore creating "relationship".

With the Holy Spirit added among the father and son you now have "community" because you have each person relating to each other and themselves.

Community is the basis for humanity because we are designed for relationship with each other. Community is the foundation for our existence. The bible says that the lord said "it is not good that man is alone".

[bernee51]

Here is my belief. I believe that the trinity was not "first" in any part of it because I believe it is eternal. I do believe that because of the concept of the relationship centrality of mankind there was never separation between the trinity but eternal union.

With one father you have a man connected to himself.

With a son added to existence with the father you have two people connected to themselves, and each other therefore creating "relationship".

With the Holy Spirit added among the father and son you now have "community" because you have each person relating to each other and themselves.

Community is the basis for humanity because we are designed for relationship with each other. Community is the foundation for our existence.

If that is the case could not 'trinity' be a reflection of mankind and not the other way around?