Is the Bible addressed to women?

[McCulloch]

The Bible was written and preserved to be read by men and women.

The apostle Paul seems to disagree.

The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?

In fact, much of the Bible seems to have been written as it if were addressed to men only. In the ten commandments, men are commanded not to covet their neighbours' wives.

Question: Is the Bible addressed to women?

[jergarmar]

Still, I certainly hope that this is one of thsoe passages that is actually considered a mirror of the time and obsolete. Unfortunantly, like I said earlier, I know churches that forbid women to teach children past a certain age and give women little or no authority over higher church matters.

In the interest of full disclosure, I will tell you that my denomination doesn't allow women to be elders or deacons. I know that some Christian men abuse and misuse this principle; partly because of this I found it to be a difficult thing to accept at first. Someone had to sit me down and say, "Here's the Bible passages -- what do YOU think they say?"

But that's what being a Christian means -- even if it's not easy to accept and even if it's not the cultural norm, if the simple reading of the Bible says it I can't just ignore it to make me feel better. I still have the feeling "it's not fair" sometimes, especially when I see a woman with a gift for teaching.

This isn't evidence for why I believe it -- it's just me. I apologize if I sound like I'm sermonizing.

[OpenedUp]

Still, I certainly hope that this is one of thsoe passages that is actually considered a mirror of the time and obsolete. Unfortunantly, like I said earlier, I know churches that forbid women to teach children past a certain age and give women little or no authority over higher church matters.

In the interest of full disclosure, I will tell you that my denomination doesn't allow women to be elders or deacons. I know that some Christian men abuse and misuse this principle; partly because of this I found it to be a difficult thing to accept at first. Someone had to sit me down and say, "Here's the Bible passages -- what do YOU think they say?"

But that's what being a Christian means -- even if it's not easy to accept and even if it's not the cultural norm, if the simple reading of the Bible says it I can't just ignore it to make me feel better. I still have the feeling "it's not fair" sometimes, especially when I see a woman with a gift for teaching.

This isn't evidence for why I believe it -- it's just me. I apologize if I sound like I'm sermonizing.

It doesn't sound like sermonizing to me. Your honesty is very much appreciated.

You have said what I think many are afraid to say. There are some verses that you can not claim say something that they clearly do not, and that is what I find many Christians trying to do.

I believe it is an out dated idea and a religion at certain points must keep mark with the times, or it will die out.


I understand your submission under the Bible, or well I don't understand it but I can see where you are coming from. I have found it far more rewarding to live a life based on things that I find to be the most good and most honest and that I truly believe to be ultimantly right. For you it comes from the bible, for me I work it all out on my own. (That of course, is also just me.) I would never say one is at all times better than the other (although I have my biased of course).

Its diversity that makes this world, at times, so beautiful.

[joer]

Opened-up wrote:

I'm not sure if this is a sincere question or a jab at my character. Either way, I will point out that I present these quotes because I find them ridiculous and wrong. I would agree with your about perspective and in no way was proposing against it.

I wasn't sure about your intent. I see now you have a character in this exchange worthy of respect. Your honesty and integrity displayed in your subsequent posts to jegarmar we're like a breath of fresh air. I'm more like yourself, I prefer to embrace what I find to be right and true. And decry error. I believe some of the writings attributed to Paul in the Bible in regards to treatment of women may have been acceptable in his time BUT have no place in our time now.

I echo your sentiments there. Also in respect of yours and jegarmar's candor, I have to say not only do I pray and work for change in terms of recognition of women's gifts, like jegarmar says the gift of teaching but also their advancement to any position in the Church. As I religious person I believe it's important to demonstrate to the Churches that this is in accordance to Christ's teaching and God's Will.

I can understand a person's readiness to reject Organized religions errors, BUT I fail to see the benefit of reject GOD for organized religion's errors.

Good Will to you OpenedUp. i respect your integrity.

Jergarmar, I don't know what religion you belong too. There is a Religion where a women named Janis Reid I believe, was expelled from her Church for trying to revive a worship of God the Mother. Even though the founder of that Religion and his wife and family used to sing praises to God the Mother. The Prophet on Earth of that Religion made an announcement that there would be no worship of God the Mother.

I don't advocate anybody leaving their Religion for another. I advocate them working for change within their Religion to bring it inline with Jesus teachings and God's Will. And it's not God's Will that women should be treated as anything less than men.

God Bless you Jergarmar.

[OpenedUp]

Opened-up wrote:

I'm not sure if this is a sincere question or a jab at my character. Either way, I will point out that I present these quotes because I find them ridiculous and wrong. I would agree with your about perspective and in no way was proposing against it.

I wasn't sure about your intent. I see now you have a character in this exchange worthy of respect. Your honesty and integrity displayed in your subsequent posts to jegarmar we're like a breath of fresh air. I'm more like yourself, I prefer to embrace what I find to be right and true. And decry error. I believe some of the writings attributed to Paul in the Bible in regards to treatment of women may have been acceptable in his time BUT have no place in our time now.

Thank you Joer. I have been making a real effort lately to stay as honest, true , and understanding as I can be. I hope it lasts

I agree with your evaluation of Paul. I feel like this idea has stayed pretty low key, and maybe (and hopefully) it will weed itself out.

I echo your sentiments there. Also in respect of yours and jegarmar's candor, I have to say not only do I pray and work for change in terms of recognition of women's gifts, like jegarmar says the gift of teaching but also their advancement to any position in the Church. As I religious person I believe it's important to demonstrate to the Churches that this is in accordance to Christ's teaching and God's Will.

I'm always glad to hear that.

I can understand a person's readiness to reject Organized religions errors, BUT I fail to see the benefit of reject GOD for organized religion's errors.

I just want to point out that to me, I am not "rejecting" God, I don't believe he exists at all. Rejecting would imply that I believed there was an entity there to reject int he first place. I dismiss the idea of God, perhaps. And I did not come to this dismissal because of organized religions errors, though they were a small factor in my eventual realization. There are many reasons for my current belief.

Good Will to you OpenedUp. i respect your integrity.

Thanks Joer. I respect yours as well. It is always nice to reach a good common ground. Just know that I will certainly disagree and be critical of whatever you present, and I'm sure you will gladly provide your own opinion to my opposition.

I apologize now for any heated ideas I may spew. lol

[joer]

I hope you accept my apology OpenedUp. I too get passionate about my beliefs. Forgive me if I've mistreated you in the past. That is not my intent. I like you want to share that which has given my peace, stability and assurance in my life. And I accept that we all have our own perspective on what that is.

How about you Jergarmar? What gives peace and assurance in your life? In terms of how women are treated what would make it better?

Here's one that I think apply's to religious men and women equally. It's about what we sence within us OpenedUp. The spirit of God within us. It's not easy to sense and you kind of grow into it as you open yourself up to belief in God. I don't know if you've heard it expressed like this before? Have you senced God within you or seen God expressed in the world around you jergarmar?

"Religion, the conviction-faith of the personality, can always triumph over the superficially contradictory logic of despair born in the unbelieving material mind. There really is a true and genuine inner voice, that "true light which lights every man and woman who comes into the world." And this spirit leading is distinct from the ethical prompting of human conscience. The feeling of religious assurance is more than an emotional feeling. The assurance of religion transcends the reason of the mind, even the logic of philosophy. Religion is faith, trust, and assurance."

Peace be with you my friends. Good Will be yours.

[jergarmar]

How about you Jergarmar? What gives peace and assurance in your life? In terms of how women are treated what would make it better?

Here's one that I think apply's to religious men and women equally. It's about what we sence within us OpenedUp. The spirit of God within us. It's not easy to sense and you kind of grow into it as you open yourself up to belief in God. I don't know if you've heard it expressed like this before? Have you senced God within you or seen God expressed in the world around you jergarmar?

This really isn't the thread for a good response to this, so I'll keep it short.

While I certainly agree that the spirit of God works in us (and me personally), I need something outside myself to really ground me in peace and assurance. How do I know I'm not just kidding myself about all this God stuff? That's why Christians need the Bible as a standard and a reference point. "If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied" as Paul says.

"Religion, the conviction-faith of the personality, can always triumph over the superficially contradictory logic of despair born in the unbelieving material mind. There really is a true and genuine inner voice, that "true light which lights every man and woman who comes into the world." And this spirit leading is distinct from the ethical prompting of human conscience. The feeling of religious assurance is more than an emotional feeling. The assurance of religion transcends the reason of the mind, even the logic of philosophy. Religion is faith, trust, and assurance."

Again, I'll just give a short response. I certainly think that in some sense assurance is more than just a feeling and more than just a list of doctrinal points I adhere to. However, this specific quote seems to suggest that assurance (and conviction and faith) is some kind of ethereal, "spiritual" quality set against logic and reason in the material mind. Anyway I'm off topic. Sounds like a good new discussion, though.

[joer]

Jergarmar wrote:

While I certainly agree that the spirit of God works in us (and me personally), I need something outside myself to really ground me in peace and assurance. How do I know I'm not just kidding myself about all this God stuff?

I understand what you mean Jergarmar. I remember having those same ideas of doubt myself. Even at age 34 when I needed to know more than what teh Bible taught. I began searching and I found truths of God's existence all around me. In many books. In nature. And in the living experiences in my life. But at that time after my father died my mental knowledge about God left me not empty but LACKING.

I believe there will come a time in your life when that that is within you, “the spirit of God” will become so strong that that which you find outside of you will be understood better by what you’ve experienced by what is within you. When you find God outside of you with your mind there will always be some doubt that, “How do I know I'm not just kidding myself about all this God stuff?”

But from the Bible and other writings and truths that you experience in your life you’ll see more and more that the TRUTH IS LIVING WITHIN YOU. Then you’ll know for SURE that you’re not, “kidding yourself about all this God stuff.”

Some doubt is good, as long as it makes you search harder for the Truth about God. But too much doubt will make you stop searching for God and for some cause them to even turn against God.

See if these ideas in this story, touch your heart (resonant with something inside of you):

"The Supreme Spirit shall bear witness with your spirits that you are truly the children of God. And if you are the sons and daughters of God, then have you been born of the spirit of God; and whosoever has been born of the spirit has in himself or herself the power to overcome all doubt, and this is the victory that overcomes all uncertainty, even your faith.

You must cease to seek for the word of God only on the pages of the olden records of theologic authority. Those who are born of the spirit of God shall henceforth discern the word of God regardless of whence it appears to take origin.

Divine truth must not be discounted because the channel of its bestowal is apparently human. Many of your brethren have minds which accept the theory of God while they spiritually fail to realize the presence of God. And that is just the reason why I have so often taught you that the kingdom of heaven can best be realized by acquiring the spiritual attitude of a sincere child. It is not the mental immaturity of the child that I commend to you but rather the spiritual simplicity of such an easy-believing and fully-trusting little one. It is not so important that you should know about the fact of God as that you should increasingly grow in the ability to feel the presence of God.

When you once begin to find God in your soul, presently you will begin to discover him in other men's souls and eventually in all the creatures and creations of a mighty universe. But what chance does the Father have to appear as a God of supreme loyalties and divine ideals in the souls of men who give little or no time to the thoughtful contemplation of such eternal realities? While the mind is not the seat of the spiritual nature, it is indeed the gateway thereto.

But do not make the mistake of trying to prove to other men that you have found God; you cannot consciously produce such valid proof, albeit there are two positive and powerful demonstrations of the fact that you are God-knowing, and they are:

The fruits of the spirit of God showing forth in your daily routine life.

The fact that your entire life plan furnishes positive proof that you have unreservedly risked everything you are and have on the adventure of survival after death in the pursuit of the hope of finding the God of eternity, whose presence you have foretasted in time.

Now, mistake not, my Father will ever respond to the faintest flicker of faith. He takes note of the physical and superstitious emotions of the primitive man. And with those honest but fearful souls whose faith is so weak that it amounts to little more than an intellectual conformity to a passive attitude of assent to religions of authority, the Father is ever alert to honor and foster even all such feeble attempts to reach out for him. But you who have been called out of darkness into the light are expected to believe with a whole heart; your faith shall dominate the combined attitudes of body, mind, and spirit.

You are my apostles, and to you religion shall not become a theologic shelter to which you may flee in fear of facing the rugged realities of spiritual progress and idealistic adventure; but rather shall your religion become the fact of real experience which testifies that God has found you, idealized, ennobled, and spiritualized you, and that you have enlisted in the eternal adventure of finding the God who has thus found and sonshipped and daughtershipped you.

And when Jesus had finished speaking, he beckoned to Andrew and, pointing to the west toward Phoenicia, said: "Let us be on our way."


[/b]

[jergarmar]

But from the Bible and other writings and truths that you experience in your life you’ll see more and more that the TRUTH IS LIVING WITHIN YOU. Then you’ll know for SURE that you’re not, “kidding yourself about all this God stuff.”
<snip>
You must cease to seek for the word of God only on the pages of the olden records of theologic authority. Those who are born of the spirit of God shall henceforth discern the word of God regardless of whence it appears to take origin.

I can agree with some of what you say, certainly. However, I don't know who you are quoting here, but the above passages in particular concern me. Do we really cease looking for the word of God in the words of God in the Bible? Does my assurance rest MORE in my own feelings than in the scriptures?

Let us try to bring the point back to the topic at hand. When we were dealing with the passages in the Bible concerning women, you saw a conflict between the accounts of Jesus and the writings of Paul, and you accused several gospels of being altered to better accommodate a Judaistic male-dominated culture. Concerning women, you said straightforwardly, "Paul screwed up." Wasn't most of Paul's letters written and distributed before the gospels were written? Wasn't he one of the most influential leaders, speakers, and thinkers of early Christianity (if not THE most influential)? If he was so wrong, what does that say about a huge part of the New Testament?

I mean, if you distrust the church's historic testimony, and you distrust the scriptural testimony, what's left? Where is Christianity to be found? If the only place to find truth "is living within you", how are you supposed to give "a reason for the hope that is in you"? Whether women in the church or whatever, I aspire to be like the Bereans, who were "examining the scriptures daily to see whether these things were so."

With its outrageous claims of authority and divine inspiration, the Bible either contains truth for all times, all places, and all peoples, or it is a fraudulent book which leads people into grave errors about God and man.

[joer]

jergarmar wrote:

I can agree with some of what you say, certainly. However, I don't know who you are quoting here, but the above passages in particular concern me. Do we really cease looking for the word of God in the words of God in the Bible? Does my assurance rest MORE in my own feelings than in the scriptures?

Nope! You missed it. It said, ONLY. "cease looking for the word of God ONLY “on the pages of the olden records of theologic authority.” So if you interpret that as the Bible, it’s just saying look in your heart also. Look at the world around you. Have you ever seen God in Nature?

Let us try to bring the point back to the topic at hand. Ok When we were dealing with the passages in the Bible concerning women, you saw a conflict between the accounts of Jesus and the writings of Paul, No I didn’t see that. I was just presenting them with an understanding of the writings That I believe Jesus intended. and you accused several gospels of being altered to better accommodate a Judaistic male-dominated culture. Not altered but written originally from that historical perspective. Concerning women, you said straightforwardly, "Paul screwed up." Yes I said that in another post. Wasn't most of Paul's letters written and distributed before the gospels were written? I don’t know. Wasn't he one of the most influential leaders, speakers, and thinkers of early Christianity (if not THE most influential)? Yes he was. If he was so wrong, what does that say about a huge part of the New Testament? How wrong is so wrong? I’m just saying some of his treatment of women at the time while maybe acceptable in his era would not be acceptable today.

I mean, if you distrust the church's historic testimony, and you distrust the scriptural testimony, what's left? The truth. Jesus’ teachings. The reality of God. Where is Christianity to be found? In Jesus’ teachings. If the only place to find truth "is living within you", That’s not the only place. how are you supposed to give "a reason for the hope that is in you"? faith in God and through Jesus’ teachings. Whether women in the church or whatever, I aspire to be like the Bereans, who were "examining the scriptures daily to see whether these things were so." Excellent. I encourage you to continue.

With its outrageous claims of authority and divine inspiration, the Bible either contains truth for all times, all places, and all peoples, or it is a fraudulent book which leads people into grave errors about God and man. Can’t it contain both? Can’t it contain eternal truths and errors? I thought only God was perfect. Do you think it’s possible one of the Apostles was as perfect as God? Do you think Paul was as perfect as God? If you answer no, then it’s possible no it’s impossible that he never erred. Right?

And to really get back to the topic, “The Bible was written and preserved to be read by men and women.” And Paul was used to disparage that it was written for women. BUT I showed through Biblical text ascribed to Jesus not Paul, That it was written for women and actually had some very important messages for women of those times as well as these and one of the most important thing in the Bible for women is Acts 10:34-35

34 Then Peter proceeded to speak and said, "In truth, I see that God shows no partiality.
35 Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him.

Showing that God respects Women equally with Men. Also one of Christ’s most important teachings is:

M't:22:36: Master, which is the great commandment in the law? M't:22:37: Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. M't:22:38: This is the first and great commandment. M't:22:39: And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. M't:22:40: On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

This is non-gender related and just plain One of the most important things that Christ taught for both men and women.

So jergarmar I urge you to continue reading and studying the Bible. Because the truth you get out of it will be the truth that you discern. And discernment comes from within you. YOU CAN”T TAKE YOURSELF OUT OF THE EQUATION, because Jesus taught these truths FOR YOU. So please do keep studying and don’t let anyone, not even me, say anything to take you away from your search. Because it is true, seek and ye shall find.

God Bless Jergarmar. May the Peace of Christ be always with you.