Why did God create the tree of knowledge in the first place?

[skeleton tree]

If God did not want Adam and Eve to have that certain knowledge, then why did He create the tree in the first place? Why did He make it available to them? Why did He give them that option?

[inchrist]

there is a difference between knowing what is right and wrong, and knowing WHY it is right or wrong. Adam and eve were created in a pure nature, meaning they knew what right and wrong was, but at the same time they did not understand why it was wrong.

Since this follows no logic I'm aware of, would you quote the relevant scripture that in your mind reveals this difference? All I know is that there's a tree with a fruit which eaten grants knowledge between good/right and evil/wrong. I'll assume you don't presume to know more about the nature of Adam and Eve than what the inspired Word revealed to you.

The tree was literally called the tree of knowledge of GOOD and EVIL, not right and wrong, those are actually 2 different things. To know what is good an evil, is to fully understand what you are doing, and that knowledge is the reason we sin. If we didnt understand what evil we did, how can the Lord judge us? he wont. For we had no knowledge of what was GOOD and what was EVIL. But the knowledge of what is RIGHT and WRONG we DID have, and as i said, the bible shows us this when the serpent tells Eve to eat from the tree and she says, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it,". This verse alone tells us that adam and eve did NOT understand why they couldnt eat from the tree, but they DID know that in doing so they would be disobeying God.

Just because the writers of Genesis imagined there was any real difference between "right" and "good" that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't rise above their limitations. To an honest observer it doesn't make any more sense just because it's the Bible. This is a last and desperate line of defense that takes refuge behind pointless and misleading semantics discussions.

In the end, its your decision to try and look at these verses without all the intentions of only proving it "wrong". You must understand that if the writers of the bible explained every single action in every little detail the book would never end because it covers thousands of years of writing. That being said, all i can ask you is one question. If i say to a child dont cross the street until i tell you its safe, would the child still cross the street? No, but when their is something like an ice cream truck across the street, than the child is bound to care more about eating the ice cream than the importance of "safety" which they know nothing about. So if the child crosses the street, did he disobey what i told him so he can get something he wants? Yes, and were the consequences of his actions seriouse injury's? Yes..... This is the exact same situation as Adam and Eve. Though they were not created with the WISDOM of a child, but the innocense of one. They understood God say no to eating of the tree. But as the bible says when they saw it looked good and could give them this super knowledge, they put aside what God told them so recieve something they wanted. so, Did they know they were disobeying God? Yes. Were the consequences of their action cause sin to enter the world? Yes. I know this may not convince you, but its hard to argue that what I am saying is wrong. And i know unless Moses wrote down everything i said you would not believe it for yourself. But God gave us minds to understand his inspired word, and the bible says basically who ever tries understanding the bible without a closed heart (in NO hope of understanding the truth), than his eyes will never be opened to the word of God.

[byofrcs]

there is a difference between knowing what is right and wrong, and knowing WHY it is right or wrong. Adam and eve were created in a pure nature, meaning they knew what right and wrong was, but at the same time they did not understand why it was wrong.

Since this follows no logic I'm aware of, would you quote the relevant scripture that in your mind reveals this difference? All I know is that there's a tree with a fruit which eaten grants knowledge between good/right and evil/wrong. I'll assume you don't presume to know more about the nature of Adam and Eve than what the inspired Word revealed to you.

The tree was literally called the tree of knowledge of GOOD and EVIL, not right and wrong, those are actually 2 different things. To know what is good an evil, is to fully understand what you are doing, and that knowledge is the reason we sin. If we didnt understand what evil we did, how can the Lord judge us? he wont. For we had no knowledge of what was GOOD and what was EVIL. But the knowledge of what is RIGHT and WRONG we DID have, and as i said, the bible shows us this when the serpent tells Eve to eat from the tree and she says, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it,". This verse alone tells us that adam and eve did NOT understand why they couldnt eat from the tree, but they DID know that in doing so they would be disobeying God.

Just because the writers of Genesis imagined there was any real difference between "right" and "good" that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't rise above their limitations. To an honest observer it doesn't make any more sense just because it's the Bible. This is a last and desperate line of defense that takes refuge behind pointless and misleading semantics discussions.

In the end, its your decision to try and look at these verses without all the intentions of only proving it "wrong". You must understand that if the writers of the bible explained every single action in every little detail the book would never end because it covers thousands of years of writing. That being said, all i can ask you is one question. If i say to a child dont cross the street until i tell you its safe, would the child still cross the street? No, but when their is something like an ice cream truck across the street, than the child is bound to care more about eating the ice cream than the importance of "safety" which they know nothing about. So if the child crosses the street, did he disobey what i told him so he can get something he wants? Yes, and were the consequences of his actions seriouse injury's? Yes..... This is the exact same situation as Adam and Eve. Though they were not created with the WISDOM of a child, but the innocense of one. They understood God say no to eating of the tree. But as the bible says when they saw it looked good and could give them this super knowledge, they put aside what God told them so recieve something they wanted. so, Did they know they were disobeying God? Yes. Were the consequences of their action cause sin to enter the world? Yes. I know this may not convince you, but its hard to argue that what I am saying is wrong. And i know unless Moses wrote down everything i said you would not believe it for yourself. But God gave us minds to understand his inspired word, and the bible says basically who ever tries understanding the bible without a closed heart (in NO hope of understanding the truth), than his eyes will never be opened to the word of God.

So what you are saying is that when your child disobeys your road safety lecture, you kill them ("You will die") and if the child is a girl you deliberately multiply the birth pains ?

You have twisted the scenario around. The Bible doesn't say that God teaches Adam and Eve and they learn without being killed or tortured. It's very clear; God creates the death, God induces the pain.

Christianity should exorcise this perverse little snuff scenario from its canon and stop delighting in the cruel death of an archtype which it calls a saviour. I doubt it will though; there is just too much money to be made.

[inchrist]

there is a difference between knowing what is right and wrong, and knowing WHY it is right or wrong. Adam and eve were created in a pure nature, meaning they knew what right and wrong was, but at the same time they did not understand why it was wrong.

Since this follows no logic I'm aware of, would you quote the relevant scripture that in your mind reveals this difference? All I know is that there's a tree with a fruit which eaten grants knowledge between good/right and evil/wrong. I'll assume you don't presume to know more about the nature of Adam and Eve than what the inspired Word revealed to you.

The tree was literally called the tree of knowledge of GOOD and EVIL, not right and wrong, those are actually 2 different things. To know what is good an evil, is to fully understand what you are doing, and that knowledge is the reason we sin. If we didnt understand what evil we did, how can the Lord judge us? he wont. For we had no knowledge of what was GOOD and what was EVIL. But the knowledge of what is RIGHT and WRONG we DID have, and as i said, the bible shows us this when the serpent tells Eve to eat from the tree and she says, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it,". This verse alone tells us that adam and eve did NOT understand why they couldnt eat from the tree, but they DID know that in doing so they would be disobeying God.

Just because the writers of Genesis imagined there was any real difference between "right" and "good" that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't rise above their limitations. To an honest observer it doesn't make any more sense just because it's the Bible. This is a last and desperate line of defense that takes refuge behind pointless and misleading semantics discussions.

In the end, its your decision to try and look at these verses without all the intentions of only proving it "wrong". You must understand that if the writers of the bible explained every single action in every little detail the book would never end because it covers thousands of years of writing. That being said, all i can ask you is one question. If i say to a child dont cross the street until i tell you its safe, would the child still cross the street? No, but when their is something like an ice cream truck across the street, than the child is bound to care more about eating the ice cream than the importance of "safety" which they know nothing about. So if the child crosses the street, did he disobey what i told him so he can get something he wants? Yes, and were the consequences of his actions seriouse injury's? Yes..... This is the exact same situation as Adam and Eve. Though they were not created with the WISDOM of a child, but the innocense of one. They understood God say no to eating of the tree. But as the bible says when they saw it looked good and could give them this super knowledge, they put aside what God told them so recieve something they wanted. so, Did they know they were disobeying God? Yes. Were the consequences of their action cause sin to enter the world? Yes. I know this may not convince you, but its hard to argue that what I am saying is wrong. And i know unless Moses wrote down everything i said you would not believe it for yourself. But God gave us minds to understand his inspired word, and the bible says basically who ever tries understanding the bible without a closed heart (in NO hope of understanding the truth), than his eyes will never be opened to the word of God.

So what you are saying is that when your child disobeys your road safety lecture, you kill them ("You will die") and if the child is a girl you deliberately multiply the birth pains ?

You have twisted the scenario around. The Bible doesn't say that God teaches Adam and Eve and they learn without being killed or tortured. It's very clear; God creates the death, God induces the pain.

Christianity should exorcise this perverse little snuff scenario from its canon and stop delighting in the cruel death of an archtype which it calls a saviour. I doubt it will though; there is just too much money to be made.

If I ask a child not to cross the street because they could get hurt. and they disobey what i said and go run across the street and happen to get hurt. Was it me who hurt them? Or have they hurt themselves? What if they are infact dieng, and lose almost all their blood, and the only way to save them is give them my blood because no one else has a match? But in doing so I could lose my own life, And what if I decide to give my life up, so they can live, even after they were the ones who didnt listen to my ONE commandment. I told them they could play anywhere they wanted to except not on the streets because they could get hurt. So was it my fault they are hurt? No, and even though it was their fault, i decide to give up my life so that they might live......Yea i see, what a horrible God we have

[Beto]

there is a difference between knowing what is right and wrong, and knowing WHY it is right or wrong. Adam and eve were created in a pure nature, meaning they knew what right and wrong was, but at the same time they did not understand why it was wrong.

Since this follows no logic I'm aware of, would you quote the relevant scripture that in your mind reveals this difference? All I know is that there's a tree with a fruit which eaten grants knowledge between good/right and evil/wrong. I'll assume you don't presume to know more about the nature of Adam and Eve than what the inspired Word revealed to you.

The tree was literally called the tree of knowledge of GOOD and EVIL, not right and wrong, those are actually 2 different things. To know what is good an evil, is to fully understand what you are doing, and that knowledge is the reason we sin. If we didnt understand what evil we did, how can the Lord judge us? he wont. For we had no knowledge of what was GOOD and what was EVIL. But the knowledge of what is RIGHT and WRONG we DID have, and as i said, the bible shows us this when the serpent tells Eve to eat from the tree and she says, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it,". This verse alone tells us that adam and eve did NOT understand why they couldnt eat from the tree, but they DID know that in doing so they would be disobeying God.

Just because the writers of Genesis imagined there was any real difference between "right" and "good" that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't rise above their limitations. To an honest observer it doesn't make any more sense just because it's the Bible. This is a last and desperate line of defense that takes refuge behind pointless and misleading semantics discussions.

In the end, its your decision to try and look at these verses without all the intentions of only proving it "wrong". You must understand that if the writers of the bible explained every single action in every little detail the book would never end because it covers thousands of years of writing. That being said, all i can ask you is one question. If i say to a child dont cross the street until i tell you its safe, would the child still cross the street? No, but when their is something like an ice cream truck across the street, than the child is bound to care more about eating the ice cream than the importance of "safety" which they know nothing about. So if the child crosses the street, did he disobey what i told him so he can get something he wants? Yes, and were the consequences of his actions seriouse injury's? Yes..... This is the exact same situation as Adam and Eve. Though they were not created with the WISDOM of a child, but the innocense of one. They understood God say no to eating of the tree. But as the bible says when they saw it looked good and could give them this super knowledge, they put aside what God told them so recieve something they wanted. so, Did they know they were disobeying God? Yes. Were the consequences of their action cause sin to enter the world? Yes. I know this may not convince you, but its hard to argue that what I am saying is wrong. And i know unless Moses wrote down everything i said you would not believe it for yourself. But God gave us minds to understand his inspired word, and the bible says basically who ever tries understanding the bible without a closed heart (in NO hope of understanding the truth), than his eyes will never be opened to the word of God.

So what you are saying is that when your child disobeys your road safety lecture, you kill them ("You will die") and if the child is a girl you deliberately multiply the birth pains ?

You have twisted the scenario around. The Bible doesn't say that God teaches Adam and Eve and they learn without being killed or tortured. It's very clear; God creates the death, God induces the pain.

Christianity should exorcise this perverse little snuff scenario from its canon and stop delighting in the cruel death of an archtype which it calls a saviour. I doubt it will though; there is just too much money to be made.

If I ask a child not to cross the street because they could get hurt. and they disobey what i said and go run across the street and happen to get hurt. Was it me who hurt them? Or have they hurt themselves? What if they are infact dieng, and lose almost all their blood, and the only way to save them is give them my blood because no one else has a match? But in doing so I could lose my own life, And what if I decide to give my life up, so they can live, even after they were the ones who didnt listen to my ONE commandment. I told them they could play anywhere they wanted to except not on the streets because they could get hurt. So was it my fault they are hurt? No, and even though it was their fault, i decide to give up my life so that they might live......Yea i see, what a horrible God we have

For some unfathomable reason, some of us actually hold children by the hand when crossing the street precisely because we don't expect them to understand things that are beyond them at that time. From my perspective, a god who would think differently isn't terrible. Sometimes what seems evil is just stupidity. Like all the parents out there that expect their children to behave as adults, and punish them for not being able to.

[Muz]

Put yourself in their shoes. You have no idea of right/wrong, good/evil or what 'you will surely die means'. You are innocent. Unsullied by all the knowledge we have of such things. God says "Don't eat'. You have no idea of the ramifications of disobeying.

Why do A&E need to know more than "Don't eat, or you'll die" to not eat?

Adam to Eve: Why did god say not eat?

Eve to Adam: I don't know.

Adam to Eve: What does die mean?

Eve to Adam: I don't know.

A to E Neither do I

E to A let's eat.

But that's not the conversation that took place.

Furthermore, "because God said not to eat it" is a sufficient reason for not eating. That would define right and wrong for this action.

Additionally, whether they had experienced death or not, clearly dying was a bad consequence in their minds, or they would not have tried to push responsibility away from themselves.

So, I don't think this represents their state.

Why? That still makes no sense. They had no idea of good/evil, right/wrong until after they committed the 'sin'

If that were the case, then it wouldn't have been sin.

God still expressly told them "Don't eat ot the TKGE." If you assume that God is just, then the only He could punish them for violating the command if if they understood what it meant.

Exactly what has been said all along. God was/is obviously not just.

But He was and is. That's a presupposition of the entire Old Testament. And, under that presupposition, A&E had sufficient knowledge to know not to eat from the TKGE.

1

Why is it 'silly' to assume that total innocents would be expected to know the difference between right or wrong, good or evil?

Because they were told what "right" and "wrong" were in this case. There isn't much to understand in "don't eat that."

Did god say it was wrong to eat the fruit?

What part of "You shall not eat from the TKGE" doesn't say "it would be wrong to do so?"

Besides god should have known what they were going to do anyway - why all the play acting?

I disagree. I think God fully expected that the would not eat from the tree.

So your god is not all knowing? That's a step down from the apparent general consensus of christians regarding their god.

I'm an open view theist. I believe that the future is logically unknowable, given that humans have free will. Thus, God is omniscient, and at the same time, there are always new things to be known, as unknowable future decisions become past events.

Muz

[Alethes]

eymik Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:15 am Post subject: Predestination? Seriously?

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re:McCulloch

Seriously? You're saying that God predestined A&E's disobedience and as a result the whole of sinful humanity's history. It almost sounds like he planned it. How can you foresee a choice and have no affect on its outcome? God created A&E, gave them instructions, but somehow knew they would end up disobeying it? So he wanted them to fall into sin and, in turn, wreck humanity for thousands of years, just so he could show off how much love he has by jumping in and saving the day with Jesus? Seriously?

what you have to ask yourself is,if adam and eve had no knowledge of good and evil untill they ate from the tree,how could they know it was wrong to eat from the tree.

also if god is omnscient then ofcourse he knew the outcome of what would happen.the question is why he would do it even though knowing what would happen.

God allowed it because #1: He gave Adam and Eve freedom of will to choose, which He will not overstep and #2: God, in His foreknowledge, knew the ultimate outcome of it all. God knew Christ would perfectly carry out His plan of redemption which would bring remission of sins and eternal life for all who believe in and confess the Lord Jesus Christ -- Romans 10:9.

God did not make man or angels to be robots who have no heart or mind of their own, but gave man the free will or ability to choose good or evil - life or death.

[Alethes]

If God did not want Adam and Eve to have that certain knowledge, then why did He create the tree in the first place? Why did He make it available to them? Why did He give them that option?

God did not want Adam and Eve to partake or experientally know evil but only to do that which was good in God's sight. However, God gave them the freedom of will to choose to obey or disobey His commandment which was that they should not eat/partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Unfortunately, they chose to beleve the words of the Serpent, rather than to believe the Word of God and ,therefore. received the consequences of thei unbelief.

[Beto]

God did not want Adam and Eve to partake or experientally know evil but only to do that which was good in God's sight.

*holds up megaphone* HELLOOO! THEY COULDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS GOOD IN GOD'S SIGHT BECAUSE THEY HADN'T EATEN FROM THE FREAKIN' TREE OF KNOWLEDGE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL YET! THEY DIDN'T KNOW DISOBEDIENCE WASN'T GOOD SO THEY HAD NO REASON TO OBEY! AAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHHHHHH *grabs chest in atrocious pain*

[Metatron]

Put yourself in their shoes. You have no idea of right/wrong, good/evil or what 'you will surely die means'. You are innocent. Unsullied by all the knowledge we have of such things. God says "Don't eat'. You have no idea of the ramifications of disobeying.

Why do A&E need to know more than "Don't eat, or you'll die" to not eat?

Adam to Eve: Why did god say not eat?

Eve to Adam: I don't know.

Adam to Eve: What does die mean?

Eve to Adam: I don't know.

A to E Neither do I

E to A let's eat.

But that's not the conversation that took place.

Furthermore, "because God said not to eat it" is a sufficient reason for not eating. That would define right and wrong for this action.

As Bernie points out, Adam and Eve have no basis for making decisions concerning right vs. wrong. Not only have they not yet eaten from the Tree but there is also no reason to believe that they had ever been confronted with a moral decision before even assuming they had the capability to comprehend it. It's like asking a child who has had no moral instruction to ignore the piece of candy left conspicuously in front of them because the child's parent told them not to eat it. Indeed, it is worse since the scenario includes a serpent who tells them that it's okay to eat the fruit. This would be like another adult coming into the room with the child above and telling him/her that it was, in fact, okay to eat the candy. Under the circumstances, it is incredibly likely that the child would eat the candy and it should not surprise anyone that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit under similar circumstances.

Additionally, whether they had experienced death or not, clearly dying was a bad consequence in their minds, or they would not have tried to push responsibility away from themselves.

I should point out here that Adam and Eve attempted to push responsiblity away from themselves AFTER eating the fruit which gave them comprehension of good and evil. There is no evidence that the thought of death was of particular consequence to them. Indeed, to the contrary, Adam and Eve even parroted the comment about death being the consequences of eating the fruit to the serpent and then proceeded moments later to eat the fruit anyway. Not a lot of evidence that they were too hung up on death.

God still expressly told them "Don't eat ot the TKGE." If you assume that God is just, then the only He could punish them for violating the command if if they understood what it meant.

Exactly what has been said all along. God was/is obviously not just.

But He was and is. That's a presupposition of the entire Old Testament. And, under that presupposition, A&E had sufficient knowledge to know not to eat from the TKGE.

It may be YOUR presupposition that God is just in the OT but IMHO an objective reading of the text would indicate otherwise. Read the Book of Job sometime for an example of God's alleged justice in action.

Why is it 'silly' to assume that total innocents would be expected to know the difference between right or wrong, good or evil?

Because they were told what "right" and "wrong" were in this case. There isn't much to understand in "don't eat that."

As has been stated numerous times, Adam and Eve had no basis for understanding concepts like right and wrong. There is no reason that they would understand the "don't eat that" command.

Besides god should have known what they were going to do anyway - why all the play acting?

I disagree. I think God fully expected that the would not eat from the tree.

So your god is not all knowing? That's a step down from the apparent general consensus of christians regarding their god.

I'm an open view theist. I believe that the future is logically unknowable, given that humans have free will. Thus, God is omniscient, and at the same time, there are always new things to be known, as unknowable future decisions become past events.

Errr....sorry, it's not possible to be characterized as omniscient (all knowing) and there be things classified as unknowable. The very definition of the word precludes it. Your vision of God is apparently a being that progresses in a linear fashion through time as we do and thus possesses only the knowledge available in the past and present but is not the master of all space/time. This also calls his alleged omnipotence into question since he has no power concerning the future until it becomes the present.

[Alethes]

God did not want Adam and Eve to partake or experientally know evil but only to do that which was good in God's sight.

*holds up megaphone* HELLOOO! THEY COULDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS GOOD IN GOD'S SIGHT BECAUSE THEY HADN'T EATEN FROM THE FREAKIN' TREE OF KNOWLEDGE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL YET! THEY DIDN'T KNOW DISOBEDIENCE WASN'T GOOD SO THEY HAD NO REASON TO OBEY! AAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHHHHHH *grabs chest in atrocious pain*

You need to lose that nasty and angry disposition of yours if you ever want to rightly divide the Word of Truth. By the way, it's not a "freakin tree."

They knew what would happen if they disobeyed God because God told them if they did they would "surely die." Adam knew disobeying God would be displeasing to Him. God did not make zombies without a mind to think and reason. Eve was deceived and believed Satan's lies and false promises, but Adam sinned with both eyes wide opened.