The January 6 "Tourist Event"

[fredonly]

This is a continuation of my conversation with member "1213" on the crimes committed on and before Jan 6 2021, associated with Trump's attempt to steal the election. 1213 referred to the Capitol break-in as a "tourist event".

[1213]

...Again, you know, I know, and everyone else knows that if there was a problem with the machines, folks would not stop until they were exposed

And I believe they will be exposed eventually.

, and the fact is, FOX made accusations, Dominion called their bluff, and FOX had to pay dearly.

I think that is misleading. Fox failed in the case, because their claim was in certain way wrong, inaccurate. That doesn't mean the machines are trustworthy or that there was no fraud.

Could you give one example of a such case?

https://www.politifact.com/article/2020 ... suits-her/

Here is an example of dozens of cases, and if you will notice the article was authored Dec. 10th 2020, which means before Jan. 6th dozens of cases were brought forth and thrown out, which demonstrates your idea that the evidence was ignored is just a conspiracy.

Thanks, shows nicely why the results can't be trusted. I think that shows also nicely how bad the justice system is. For example:

Lawsuits that were filed too late. One suit in Pennsylvania targeted a 2019 law that allowed no-excuse absentee ballots in the state. The court, in its ruling dismissing the suit, said the plaintiffs should have been challenged well before the election, rather than after millions of such votes had been cast.

That is like saying, "murderer should have been accused before the murder, now that it murder has happened, it is too late to show the law and tell murder was wrong". Very sick and twisted.

Christians should be operating out of love for neighbor, as opposed to standing up for Christian rights.

I think loving neighbor means one stands up for his Christian rights.

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to 1213 in post #31]

And I believe they will be exposed eventually.

All you are doing is to demonstrate one who is going to believe what they would rather believe. In other words, "I want to believe the machines are faulty, and I am going to continue to believe the machines are faulty with the evidence actually working against me, and in that way if there is any sort of problem at all found with the machines, then I can say "told you so" but if nothing is ever found wrong with the machines, I can continue to hold the position that "I believe they will be exposed eventually".

I think that is misleading. Fox failed in the case, because their claim was in certain way wrong, inaccurate. That doesn't mean the machines are trustworthy or that there was no fraud.

Can you not see that you simply continue to tell us what you "think" without any sort of facts and evidence to back it up? Unless you can back up what you are saying, you are simply joining in the effort to attempt to get folks to lose confidence in our system. When folks lose confidence in the system, they will be happy to move on to another system. The fact of the matter is the system worked. FOX made false claims. Dominion took FOX to court. FOX knew they were spreading falsehoods. FOX agrees to pay 750 million dollars to pay for their misinformation. See how well the system works?

That is like saying, "murderer should have been accused before the murder, now that it murder has happened, it is too late to show the law and tell murder was wrong". Very sick and twisted.

Yeah, there is something "very sick and twisted". Let us see if we can figure it out.

"Lawsuits that were filed too late. One suit in Pennsylvania targeted a 2019 law that allowed no-excuse absentee ballots in the state. The court, in its ruling dismissing the suit, said the plaintiffs should have been challenged well before the election, rather than after millions of such votes had been cast".

My friend, this is not like "murder". It is on the books that murder is against the law. Now, let us suppose that the law against murder was not on the books, and I went out and murder millions of people. Now let us suppose that Trump comes in and says, "there should have been a law against murder". The judge is going to say, "you should have made this argument long before millions of people were murdered". In other words, they cannot arrest me for a crime which was not on the books at the time.

The point is, if Trump and company believed this to be a bad law, then they should have made the complaint before the election, not after all the millions of votes had been counted. In other words, the law was on the books, and Pennsylvania abiding by the law, and one cannot come after the fact and complain that the law was not fair and expect millions of votes to be done away with.

I think loving neighbor means one stands up for his Christian rights.

GOOD GRIEF! This is exactly why the Church is in such bad shape now, because we have Christians who are under the impression that it is more important to stand up for their own rights, as opposed to standing up for the rights of others. Did Jesus stand up for His rights as he hung on the cross? Or did He plead to the Father, "forgive them"? Are we commanded to stand up for our rights? Or are we commanded to take up a cross?

I voted against Trump, but I am not really all that concerned about the United States. What I am concerned about is the direction of the Church in that the Church is somehow under the impression that our mission is to stand up for our rights. What would happen is the Church would sacrifice herself and her rights, in order to serve those who are truly oppressed, whether they were Christian or not?

[1213]

...In other words, "I want to believe the machines are faulty, and I am going to continue to believe the machines are faulty with the evidence actually working against me...

In this case the problem is that there is no evidence that they can't be used for fraud.

...in order to serve those who are truly oppressed, whether they were Christian or not?

Who are the truly oppressed?

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to 1213 in post #33]

In this case the problem is that there is no evidence that they can't be used for fraud.

Again, and again, and again, you continue to demonstrate one who is going to believe what they would rather believe, with absolutely no reason. There is absolutely no doubt the machines can be used for fraud, just like a gun can be used to murder. Now, do we assume a gun is used for murder? Or do we look for the evidence a gun was used for murder? In the same way, we have no evidence whatsoever the machines have been used in fraud. However, we have overwhelming evidence the machines have not been used in any sort of fraud, and this evidence goes on to demonstrate that our elections are the freest and safest they have ever been, and you are choosing to believe that for which we have no evidence whatsoever, as opposed to following the evidence where it leads. The point is, we do not simply assume the machines are being used for fraud simply because they can be. Rather, we look for the evidence they are being used for fraud, which is exactly what has been done, and it has been demonstrated this is not what is going on. I mean, why is it that Trump won this time, if the machines are rigged? You are championing the idea that our system is not working, going on to cause others to lose confidence in the system, and going along with those who are telling us that their aim is to do away with the system we have.

Before we move on, how is the Matt Gaetz appointment as AG working out for you? Do you not see the evidence there? I mean, you have a guy who is being investigated for sexual misconduct with a teen, along with alleged drug use, and he conveniently resigns from the house, just in time to keep the investigation from coming out, and you would think a Christian nationalist like the speaker of the house Mike Johnson would want to know what the report has to say against him before we allow this guy to take over the top law enforcement job in the nation. But no! Speaker Johnson is telling us that since he has resigned, he should no longer be under investigation. You see, the evidence is suggesting strongly, that the folks you and I have been voting for, are involved in fraud themselves, all the while attempting to hide behind the name Christian.

Who are the truly oppressed?

My friend, there are folks all over the world who are being oppressed, and we as Christians should be attempting to do whatever we can to help those who are being oppressed, as opposed to standing up for our rights as Christians, when we live in a nation where we are not being oppressed in the least.

[1213]

Again, and again, and again, you continue to demonstrate one who is going to believe what they would rather believe, with absolutely no reason. There is absolutely no doubt the machines can be used for fraud, just like a gun can be used to murder. Now, do we assume a gun is used for murder? Or do we look for the evidence a gun was used for murder? In the same way, we have no evidence whatsoever the machines have been used in fraud.

But, even if we would not have the murder weapon yet, we could know that there was a gun, if we found a body with a bullet in it. I think there is many reasons to believe there was a fraud. Biggest reason is that it is highly questionable that most people would vote against their benefit. Second reason is that Biden doesn't seem to have any visible support like Trump has. And in addition to those two there are many weird things that happened, for example that the counting continued suspiciously in some place(s).

However, I don't think we can do anything about the 2020 case. Even if there would have been a fraud, it would be impossible to prove now. I don't think people should prove there is or was a fraud, I think it should be made sure that there can't be any fraud, that is the only way to have any faith in the system. And it is interesting how "democrats" seems to want to block any attempt to make the elections more trustworthy.

I mean, why is it that Trump won this time, if the machines are rigged? You are championing the idea that our system is not working, going on to cause others to lose confidence in the system, and going along with those who are telling us that their aim is to do away with the system we have.

One reason may be that the rigging was simply not enough this time, meaning Harris got actually even less votes, but it was not enough even with cheating.

I think the reason for loosing confidence is that it is not demonstrated well enough that the system works correctly. I think best system would be that everyone could check who voted and what.

Before we move on, how is the Matt Gaetz appointment as AG working out for you? Do you not see the evidence there? I mean, you have a guy who is being investigated for sexual misconduct with a teen, along with alleged drug use...

Also Jesus was accused of many crimes. To me it is not enough to judge someone guilty.

The people who make those accusations have no credibility, after all, the same group has accused for example Trump about 8 years for "Russian collusion" without any evidence, and without being able to prove their claims. If we would go by biblical rules, those who falsely accuse others, would deserve what they seek to others.

If an unrighteous witness rise up against any man to testify against him of wrong-doing, then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before Yahweh, before the priests and the judges who shall be in those days; and the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness is a false witness, and has testified falsely against his brother; then shall you do to him, as he had thought to do to his brother: so shall you put away the evil from the midst of you. Those who remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil in the midst of you. Your eyes shall not pity; life [shall go] for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
Deut. 19:16-21

My friend, there are folks all over the world who are being oppressed, and we as Christians should be attempting to do whatever we can to help those who are being oppressed, as opposed to standing up for our rights as Christians, when we live in a nation where we are not being oppressed in the least.

How could i help them, if you don't give the names?

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to 1213 in post #35]

But, even if we would not have the murder weapon yet, we could know that there was a gun, if we found a body with a bullet in it.

You are missing the point and wasting time. I did not say a thing about a murder occurring, and nothing about a body with a bullet in it. Rather, what I am saying is, when we see a gun, we all know guns can be used for murder, but we do not simply assume the gun we are seeing has been used in a murder. In the same way when we see the voting machines we all know they could be used to rig an election, but we do not simply assume this is what is going on simply because we know this could occur. This is exactly what happened to FOX news.

Biggest reason is that it is highly questionable that most people would vote against their benefit.

If that is the biggest reason then you have no reason at all. Claiming that these folks were voting against their benefit is simply your opinion and apparently most folks held to a different opinion than you. This is no reason at all. I am telling you that if you voted for Trump you voted for the Christian nationalists to take over the country and do away with the Constitution and this goes against your benefit, and yet you did it anyway.

Second reason is that Biden doesn't seem to have any visible support like Trump has.

The visible support for Biden were the votes he got.

And in addition to those two there are many weird things that happened, for example that the counting continued suspiciously in some place(s).

My friend, Trump won this time, and even though we all know he has won there were votes still being counted days after the election.

Even if there would have been a fraud, it would be impossible to prove now.

The thing is, we had folks attempting to prove the fraud for 4 years and came up with nothing. Does it ever occur to you that this may be because there was no fraud to be found?

And it is interesting how "democrats" seems to want to block any attempt to make the elections more trustworthy.

GOOD GRIEF! You watched Trump with your own eyes attempt to overthrow the election in 2020, and you are talking about the democrats?

One reason may be that the rigging was simply not enough this time, meaning Harris got actually even less votes, but it was not enough even with cheating.

But the question is, where is the evidence of this cheating? You have none and yet you keep insisting, while ignoring the fact that Trump had all intentions of staying in power even though he lost.

I think the reason for loosing confidence is that it is not demonstrated well enough that the system works correctly.

Or, how about this. Trump told the nation well before the election that the only way he could lose is if the election was stolen, going on to put the idea in their head before the election? That is a fact.

Also Jesus was accused of many crimes. To me it is not enough to judge someone guilty.

So, now we are comparing Gaetz to Jesus? Not going to work my friend. Gaetz resigned from the house just in time, in hopes the reports would not come out. However, the committee had precedence to bring the report out anyway and were more than likely going to do just that, and now Gaetz being a bigger man decided to withdraw his name from the AG job so as not to hurt the country. You know, I know, and everyone else knows that if this report had nothing Gaetz would have nothing to fear. He took his name out of consideration exactly because he does not want the report to come out.

Okay, now that Gaetz is gone, would you like to tell me what you think of the pick of Pete Hegseth heading the military? I mean, this is happening before your very eyes and you can't see it. Hegseth is a self-proclaimed, card-carrying Christian nationalists which is easily demonstrated and this guy is going to run the military.

[1213]

...
The visible support for Biden were the votes he got.

I have not seen them.

So, now we are comparing Gaetz to Jesus? Not going to work my friend. Gaetz resigned from the house just in time, in hopes the reports would not come out. However, the committee had precedence to bring the report out anyway and were more than likely going to do just that, and now Gaetz being a bigger man decided to withdraw his name from the AG job so as not to hurt the country.

The point was, that people are accused, doesn't necessary mean they are guilty. And it is interesting that now it seems Gaetz admits he is guilty for some crime. Do you think he will be judged also in a court for the crime, or is it enough if media acts as the judge?

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to 1213 in post #0]

I have not seen them.

Let us see what it is you see, as opposed to what it is you do not see. You see Biden win the election which means Biden received more votes than Trump. There is no evidence whatsoever that the election was rigged in any way, and yet you claim to see fraud, and you claim there was fraud with absolutely zero evidence. You see folks for the last 4 years attempt to demonstrate the fraud, and they have failed miserably, and yet you still continue to insist there was fraud. You see Trump stand in front of the crowd on Jan. 6th and plainly tell the crowd that, "Pence did not have the courage to do what needed to be done" and you know that Trump had asked Pence to forgo the certification of the election, and what you see is Trump wanting to ensure all the votes were counted, when the fact of the matter is that it had been 2 months and Trump and company had done all they could do in order to go through the courts to demonstrate the fraud and failed at every turn, and you still see fraud.

You see the crowd on Jan. 6th ripping the barricades from the police, and overrunning the police, banging on the front door of the capital, busting out windows, and entering through these windows, forcing their way in, and somehow you see they were invited in. There is no way anyone can watch the video of Jan. 6th and come to the conclusion that the crowd was invited in, and yet that is what you see. So then, there is zero evidence of fraud, and yet you see fraud. The evidence is overwhelming that the crowd on Jan. 6th forced their way in the capital, and yet you see they were invited in. There is no doubt that you see what it is you want to see, because you demonstrate over and over that the evidence is absolutely against what it is you would rather see.

What you need to understand is, I am not a democrat and have never voted for a democrat until this year. However, I was not voting for the democrats but were rather voting against the Christian nationalist who have taken over the republican party. Allow me to explain to you what I was thinking on Jan. 6th as the events were occurring.

As I watched I was extremely alarmed, and my thinking was these folks must be extreme right-wing Christians, and the left is going to have a field day with this in that they are going to say something like this is where Christianity leads. However, I never heard one person from the left say anything of the sort. Rather, what I heard from the left was, "this was a perversion of Christianity" and they were correct, and if you do not agree then you and I are reading different Bibles.

At any rate, 2 years later I was invited by a local pastor to a book study, and he gave me the book they were studying. I can tell you I am very well read in reformed Christian theology, and I had never heard of the book, nor the author. The book was from the 1970's which is important. I was excited to get started, but when I began to read the book, I could not believe what I was reading. I am just telling you that it was at that point I realized what Jan. 6th was all about, and it was not just about far-right fringe Christians, but rather the fact that there are a whole lot of Christians who are under the impression that we as Christians are to take over by force if necessary. I am just telling you, if you cannot see the republican party is being overtaken by Christian nationalists, whose aim it is to make this a Christian nation, and the Constitution is getting in their way, then you are seeing what it is you want to see.

The point was, that people are accused, doesn't necessary mean they are guilty.

Correct. But we may never know one way or the other because he resigned his seat which conveniently stops the investigation. He has now taken his name out of the hat as far as the Trump appointment, and it stinks to high heavens.

And it is interesting that now it seems Gaetz admits he is guilty for some crime.

I know of no admission on the part of Gaetz.

Do you think he will be judged also in a court for the crime, or is it enough if media acts as the judge?

My friend, it is not the media who is involved in the investigation. Rather, that would be the house ethics committee. I can go on to tell you that the investigation has been going on for months now, and you and I both know that if there was nothing there, it would not take months to come to such a conclusion. Unless of course, one sees what they want to see.

[1213]

...You see the crowd on Jan. 6th ripping the barricades from the police, and overrunning the police, banging on the front door of the capital, busting out windows, and entering through these windows, forcing their way in, and somehow you see they were invited in. There is no way anyone can watch the video of Jan. 6th and come to the conclusion that the crowd was invited in, and yet that is what you see. So then, there is zero evidence of fraud, and yet you see fraud. The evidence is overwhelming that the crowd on Jan. 6th forced their way in the capital, and yet you see they were invited in.

The only person inciting the event, Ray Epps had no consequences for what he did on video. Why do you think it is so, if it was a real serious event?

https://rumble.com/v18fmfc-ray-epps-inc ... reste.html

That itself proves it was a fake insurrection. And it also is a great evidence for the fraud.

What you need to understand is, I am not a democrat and have never voted for a democrat until this year.

Difficult to believe that.

And it is interesting that now it seems Gaetz admits he is guilty for some crime.

I know of no admission on the part of Gaetz.

It looks like an admission, when he rejects the job just because of allegations. It would be really bad, if some can force people out of their job by false accusations. Those people would deserve to lose their job and get exactly what they tried to get to the falsely accused person.

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to 1213 in post #0]

The only person inciting the event, Ray Epps had no consequences for what he did on video. Why do you think it is so, if it was a real serious event?

I really cannot believe what I am reading here. First, whether Epps should be arrested or not has nothing whatsoever to do with it. I mean, how in the world would this indicate that Jan. 6th was not a serious event? How in the world can you even imagine that Jan. 6th was not a serious event? Folks lost their lives on that day. Again, there is no way anyone can watch the videos of Jan. 6th and come away believing the crowd was invited in, and yet that is what you see. The fact is there was an all-out attempt to restrain the crowd from even crossing the barricades, which failed, and then the crowd forced their way into the capital by busting out windows and pushing on the door. Once the crowd was in, the police had no choice but to walk with the crowd and attempt to monitor the situation and yet what you see is the crowd was invited in. GOOD GRIEF! I'm just telling you that I know all about Jan. 6th and who was behind it, and who it was who gathered the crowd for the very purpose of an insurrection, and these folks met with Trump to discuss the attempt, and they tell you this with their own lips, and it was Christians who were responsible for the gathering of the crowd, which is exactly why most all of the crowd were Christian. The most damning evidence the event was planned out is the fact that Trump himself told the crowd, "Pence did not have the courage to do what needed to be done". What was it that Trump asked Pence to do? That would be to forgo the certification.

My friend, you really need to think about what is going on here. It is a fact that The New Apostolic Reformation was behind a whole lot of Jan. 6th, and they tell you this with their own lips. The so-called apostles and prophets of the NAR had prophesied that Trump would win the election, and when God got the election wrong, they had to do something in order to protect God. Hence, the crowd on Jan. 6th. Now, let us add to this the fact that Trump is adding some very dangerous Christian nationalists to his cabinet. You have some of these Christians like Huckabee whose eschatology tells him what must happen to Israel before the return of Christ, and Trump appoints Huckabee to be the ambassador to Israel, and you can bet that his eschatology is going to factor into the way in which he operates, and he will operate in such a way as to ensure that his eschatology comes to be. Add to this the fact that Trump has appointed Hegseth to be over the military, and Hegseth has said himself that it is possible for the Temple in Jerusalem to be rebuilt on the Temple mount, and he will use his power to make this happen. Let us also think about the fact that Hegseth's eschatology is post-mil, which is the idea that Christ cannot return until the whole world is Christianized, and he can use the most powerful military in the world, in order to attempt to make his eschatology come about. I mean, "for Petes sake" the guy has a tattoo of the Jerusalem cross, along with "God wills it" tattooed on his bicep. If you cannot see the danger in all these Christian nationalists with different eschatologies attempting to ensure their eschatology wins out, then I do not know how to help you. This would be one of the reasons the founders of this nation wisely ensured a separation of Church and state, in order to prevent the Church from implementing policies in order to force their end time views to occur.

That itself proves it was a fake insurrection. And it also is a great evidence for the fraud.

It is not possible to view the videos of Jan. 6th and come away believing it was a "fake insurrection". It is also not possible for one to hear Trump tell the crowd that "Pence did not have the courage to do what needed to be done" and come away believing that Jan. 6th was not planned out for weeks, and that it was fake. It is just not possible.

Difficult to believe that.

My friend, I can absolutely demonstrate I have never voted for a democrat until this year. Why is this hard to believe? I did not vote for Reagan because this would have been the first election I could have voted, and I did not vote. I did vote for Reagan in the next, and Bush after that, and Bush after that, and the republican every other time until this year. I am still a republican, but I will not vote republican again, until, or unless the republicans rid themselves of the Christian nationalists who have taken over the party. It is a dangerous game when we allow religion to dictate policy which is exactly why the founders separated Church and state. The reason why you cannot believe I have never voted for a democrat is because you cannot imagine that the party you have been voting for all of your life has been overtaken by Christians whose aim is to do away with the Constitution. Sadly, that is the case, which is why we heard the speech begin with,

"Welcome to the end of democracy. We did not get all the way there on Jan. 6th, but we will endeavor to get rid of it, and we will replace it with this" as he held up a cross.

GOOD GRIEF! What more evidence do you need? These folks are telling you with their own lips that they intend to get rid of democracy, they incite Jan. 6th, and he is telling you that Jan. 6th was about getting rid of democracy, and what you see is, the crowd was invited in. The question is, how can you go back and read our exchanges and not understand that I have use facts, and evidence, while you believe what it is you would rather believe, without supplying anything at all other than what you would rather believe? How does the fact that Epps was not arrested change anything at all concerning Jan. 6th in your mind?

It looks like an admission, when he rejects the job just because of allegations.

EXACTLY! Thank you! You know, and I know, and everyone else knows that Trump knew about this long before he made the nomination, and he made it anyway. You know, I know, and Trump knew, that if he nominated Gaetz, it would stop the investigation of Gaetz. You know, I know, Trump knows, and everyone else knows, that Gaetz is a Trump loyalist, and would never question what Trump wants. You know, I know, Trump knows, and everyone else knows, Trump is only going to nominate those who will not question his discissions. Do you really want to be governed by one who never wants to be questioned? The evidence is in front of your eyes, and it is difficult for you to believe that I have never voted for a democrat until this year? Again, I really did not vote for Harris. Rather, I voted against Christian nationalism. If you want Christian nationalism, then you are a Christian nationalist. If this is the case, then simply tell us this.