God's Need for Loyalty?

[Skeptical]

I know that it has been argued and debated that God had to test Adam and Eve in order to see if they were loyal to him or not, but could the human race have gotten along alright if God didn't have the need to know what their loyalty was? Because it still hasn't been adequately explained as to why God needed to be sure of the first human pair's loyalty. However, it has only been dogmatically said that this is what God wanted. Therefore, could humankind had still been successful without a test of loyalty to God, or is this something that God needed to make himself feel more secure? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Wootah]

I think that you are misunderstanding what I am saying. But to put in other words, Adam and Eve and no one else would have even thought about rebelling and dying, if God had not have brought it up in the first place in Genesis 2:17. I hope you understand better what I was trying to say.

So if you come home and see the house is on fire but 'don't bring it up' then the house is not on fire?

https://www.dictionary.com/e/memes/this-is-fine/

[JehovahsWitness]

Do JWs think that given time and if done appropriately that God would have let Adam & Eve eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

No. But there's every indication he would have let them eat from "The tree of LIFE".



JW

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Could humankind had still been successful without a test of loyalty to God...?
viewtopic.php?p=1124465#p1124465

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

ADAM , , THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND BAD and ... FREE WILL,

[Skeptical]

..., could humankind had still been successful without a test of loyalty to God...?

No, I do not think so.



Biblically, humans were not created to self govern and Adam and Eve needed to recognise that to be happy. Had Jehovah (God) not brought this issue into focus by having a symbol of their ultimate dependence on Him, society would have eventually thrown up human rulers in the void. The human race would have ended right where we are now...alienated from God and suffering from human self-rule.

Now that is eisegesis in its purest forum. Because other than stating your viewpoint, you showed me absolutely no scripture to confirm what you are saying. However, please show me scripture to back that up if you are able to.

In short, Adam and Eve are tested and there is the chance of eternal happiness for the loyal. Adam and Eve are NOT tested and there is no chance. The tree was a symbol of God's involvement with the human race; his right to ask the "What are you doing" and their obligation to respond.

But wouldn't Adam and Eve have only done what was natural for them? Even if they didn't have someone asking them, ""What are you doing"? Yes, no? Because weren't all of Adam and Eve's natural instincts and points of views in alignment with the way that God had created them? Yes, no?

If you'd like to see a world when God withdraws and claims not part of the world, just looked around. How's that working out ?!

That is another strawman because I am only talking about the world in the beginning where God had never given Adam and Eve an ultimatum.

[Skeptical]

I think that you are misunderstanding what I am saying. But to put in other words, Adam and Eve and no one else would have even thought about rebelling and dying, if God had not have brought it up in the first place in Genesis 2:17. I hope you understand better what I was trying to say.

So if you come home and see the house is on fire but 'don't bring it up' then the house is not on fire?

https://www.dictionary.com/e/memes/this-is-fine/

There has been a misunderstanding of what I was saying. There's another post (you'd have to find it) where I clarified that misunderstanding that some people had about what I was saying.

[Wootah]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #32]

Any official links on that?

[JehovahsWitness]

Do JWs think that given time and if done appropriately that God would have let Adam & Eve eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

No. But there's every indication he would have let them eat from "The tree of LIFE".]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #32]

Any official links on that?

(After Adam’s sin the human pair were driven out of Eden so that they would not eat from the tree of life, according to Genesis 3:22, 23. So it seems that if Adam had remained obedient to his Creator, God would in time have permitted him to eat from that tree as a symbol of his having proved worthy to live forever. The presence of the tree of life in Eden pointed to such a prospect.) rs p. 245

RELATED POSTS

Would the prohibition on the forbidden tree have been lifted?
viewtopic.php?p=1092464#p1092464

If the fruit had no intrinsic value why would the prohibition be permanent?
viewtopic.php?p=1092364#p1092364

Could humankind had still been successful without a test of loyalty to God...?
viewtopic.php?p=1124465#p1124465

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

ADAM , , THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND BAD and ... FREE WILL,

[Skeptical]

..., could humankind had still been successful without a test of loyalty to God...?

No, I do not think so.



Biblically, humans were not created to self govern and Adam and Eve needed to recognise that to be happy. Had Jehovah (God) not brought this issue into focus by having a symbol of their ultimate dependence on Him, society would have eventually thrown up human rulers in the void. The human race would have ended right where we are now...alienated from God and suffering from human self-rule.



In short, Adam and Eve are tested and there is the chance of eternal happiness for the loyal. Adam and Eve are NOT tested and there is no chance. The tree was a symbol of God's involvement with the human race; his right to ask the "What are you doing" and their obligation to respond.

If you'd like to see a world when God withdraws and claims not part of it, just looked around. How's that working out for us ?!




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You're twisting things. Because I had never said anything about humankind being created to self-govern. What I was talking about is that humans would still function under God's laws and rules, but there not being an ultimatum by God. Therefore, I'm really not exactly sure if you don't understand what I am saying or if you are dodging the point that I'm making. Because sometimes dodging is a good way to not confront a question or a concept that someone else is making.

[Skeptical]

[Replying to Wootah in post #5]
It seems they were being tested on what they would do with their freedom of choice. Obey and live or rebel and die.

Well, as I pointed out in my post #11, there never would have been an issue of rebelling and dying until God himself made that an issue. However, the way you're making it sound like is as if humankind was some sort of 'experiment' by God that God had to 'test' to make sure whether it wanted to make the right choices or not... However, I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT IF GOD HAD NOT MADE AN ISSUE OUT OF IT, THEN THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO REASON FOR ADAM AND EVE TO HAVE REBELED.

God doesn't need their loyalty but they needed to be loyal to the One that gave them life and all the good things they had as He had already shown His loyalty to them by they good things they already had, including an entire planet.

Of course, he needed their loyalty... In order for his original purpose for earth and humankind to be fulfilled. He needed Jesus' loyalty, he needed his servants' loyalty because if not, then that would have made God a liar or a failure as far as his original purpose is concerned.

Isaiah 55:11

Webster's Bible Translation
So shall my word be that proceedeth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

Job 2:3-5

3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”

4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life. 5 But now stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

Bump for someone else other than the poster named 2timothy316. Because he or she didn't understand what I was saying.

[JehovahsWitness]

..., could humankind had still been successful without a test of loyalty to God...?

No, I do not think so.



Biblically, humans were not created to self govern and Adam and Eve needed to recognise that to be happy. Had Jehovah (God) not brought this issue into focus by having a symbol of their ultimate dependence on Him, society would have eventually thrown up human rulers in the void. The human race would have ended right where we are now...alienated from God and suffering from human self-rule.



In short, Adam and Eve are tested and there is the chance of eternal happiness for the loyal. Adam and Eve are NOT tested and there is no chance. The tree was a symbol of God's involvement with the human race; his right to ask the "What are you doing" and their obligation to respond.

If you'd like to see a world when God withdraws and claims not part of it, just looked around. How's that working out for us ?!




RELATED POSTS

Were Adam and Eve being tested?
viewtopic.php?p=1092257#p1092256

You're twisting things. ...

No, I don't believe I am.


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

... I was talking about is that humans would still function under God's laws and rules, but there not being an ultimatum by God.

So you are asking what the world would be like with divine law that carried no consequence ?

A world where God says (for exammle) : I don't want you to murder but if you do, I'm not going to do anything in response

I would think that would lead to wickedness flourishing and the weak and disadvantaged being oppressed. Much like today.