Colossians 1:16-20 English Standard Version (ESV)
16 For by[a] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
Eloi wrote: ↑Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:47 am
If Christ had not been created, then he could not be "first in all things."
Col. 1:17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because God was pleased to have all fullness to dwell in him
Bible NEVER says Jesus was creator.
If Christ was created first where was he when he was created?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
No. Jehovah created Jesus, then Jesus, with Jehovah's holy spirit, created everything else. Including the heavens.
(Colossians 1:15; Revelation 1:1; 3:14)
Where did (the created being) Jesus exist if the universe was not created yet?
With the creator being. "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men." - Proverb 8:22-31
But where was that? How can a created thing exist before creation? (answer: not logically possible).
If the expression "Son of God" doesn't tell you anything, what else could it be?
Logically possible? How do you measure or judge that? If you are asking where was the created being who was created in the image of the creator how can you logically conclude that the created couldn't exist in whatever "place" the created one had existed in? The question would apply to both, would it not?
You mentioned the universe earlier in the thread. God isn't in the universe. The universe is the physical heavens. (2 Chronicles 2:6; 1 Kings 8:27) God and the spirit beings are in the spiritual heavens. So at some time, before the physical or spiritual heavens were created, Jehovah and Michael, who is the spirit being we are talking about who was created, both existed outside of, not only the physical universe, but the spiritual heaven as well. In other words, before time.
First, you mention the Bible of Jehovah's Witnesses, in this the word "other" has been added, in the original Greek manuscripts the word "other" did not appear, therefore, the Apostle Paul really said that Christ is before ALL THINGS, not before all other things, secondly, Christ is the first of all things, because He is the Lord, owner and Maker of everything Created, that is why I say that He occupies the supremacy in all things, being THE FIRST OF ALL THINGS. Remember that even God is called "The Beginning" and this does not mean that God had a beginning, nor that God existed from a moment and then everything was made, it means that God is The Beginning, the Origin, by which it was all done, therefore your (yours) guesses are wrong. Christ is called "the firstborn of all creation", this means that Christ is the Lord of all creation, the one who has the supremacy in all creation, not that he was the first created, in fact, if you read more Go ahead see how the Apostle Paul says "... so that in everything he may have supremacy." (Referring to Christ), therefore, both the expression "Firstborn of all creation" and "Firstborn of the dead" do not denote any temporal order, but rather the hierarchical position to which Christ belongs, not that He was "the first created "but He is before all things, and in Him all things subsist, He is the first, the most important, the Supreme, the Chief, the Owner, the one who maintains all creation, through whom all was made. This would explain a little more those expressions that the JW frequently use to "prove" (in quotes) that Christ was created.
First, you mention the Bible of Jehovah's Witnesses, in this the word "other" has been added, in the original Greek manuscripts the word "other" did not appear, therefore, the Apostle Paul really said that Christ is before ALL THINGS, not before all other things, secondly, Christ is the first of all things, because He is the Lord, owner and Maker of everything Created, that is why I say that He occupies the supremacy in all things, being THE FIRST OF ALL THINGS. Remember that even God is called "The Beginning" and this does not mean that God had a beginning, nor that God existed from a moment and then everything was made, it means that God is The Beginning, the Origin, by which it was all done, therefore your (yours) guesses are wrong. Christ is called "the firstborn of all creation", this means that Christ is the Lord of all creation, the one who has the supremacy in all creation, not that he was the first created, in fact, if you read more Go ahead see how the Apostle Paul says "... so that in everything he may have supremacy." (Referring to Christ), therefore, both the expression "Firstborn of all creation" and "Firstborn of the dead" do not denote any temporal order, but rather the hierarchical position to which Christ belongs, not that He was "the first created "but He is before all things, and in Him all things subsist, He is the first, the most important, the Supreme, the Chief, the Owner, the one who maintains all creation, through whom all was made. This would explain a little more those expressions that the JW frequently use to "prove" (in quotes) that Christ was created.
Some historians have argued that Jesus was a fictional character made up by ancient Hebrews (Jews in particular). That he was made to be a modern day (for the time) Moses in order to serve as an inspiration for people suffering from Roman oppression. Others say he was based on Asclepius, the ancient Greek god of healing and medicine. In fact his many miracles and life all closely parallel that pagan god:
Like this pagan god, he was born of a god, a human mother, died, was resurrected, performed miracles, healed the sick, raised the dead, created a cult of followers who also performed the same practices, and later went to the Greek version of heaven.
There are other pagan gods who also closely parallel Jesus (some of whom were also supposedly born on December 25):
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