How reliable is the scriptures we have?

[polonius]

Before we examine any religious belief system, lets consider it's writings.

Lets start with the Gospel of Matthew.

From Introduction to Matthew in the New American Bible (Catholic) US Catholic Conference of Bishops.

"The ancient tradition that the author was the disciple and apostle of Jesus named Matthew (see Mt 10:3) is untenable because the gospel is based, in large part, on the Gospel according to Mark (almost all the verses of that gospel have been utilized in this), and it is hardly likely that a companion of Jesus would have followed so extensively an account that came from one who admittedly never had such an association rather than rely on his own memories."

What we call the Gospel of Matthew is unsigned and didn't have a name until the second century when if that named by Papius, not the brightest Church Father.

“Eusebius of Caesarea - On Papias - original Greek Text with English translation�
From Historia Ecclesiastica, 3. 39.
13. For he (Papius) appears to have been of very limited understanding, as one can see from his discourses. But it was due to him that so many of the Church Fathers after him adopted a like opinion, urging in their own support the antiquity of the man; as for instance Irenæus and any one else that may have proclaimed similar views.

[Smythe]

There is overwhelming evidence that the Bible we have today is the same that existed in "antiquity"... what we know today as the Old Testament, in Jesus's day, and the New Testament, as of at the earliest, 100 A.D. Through the millennia/centuries since then, the Holy Spirit has been maintaining the integrity of the Word of God -- through and despite the efforts of men -- just as He superintended the original writing -- again, through the efforts of men -- of it.

Well, no.

It is not simply a matter of translation, or the difference of a few words here and there, but also of what books exactly constitute "holy scripture".

Why was Revelation included in the canon, whereas the 1st Epistle of Clement was not?

If this was decided by the Holy Spirit in the early centuries, then how do you explain the circumstances of the so-called Apocrypha? These books were variously included or excluded from scripture by early compilers, then included for a thousand years until Luther decided to remove them from his Bible. I'm not debating whether or not Luther was right or wrong (though he also wanted to remove the Epistle of James), but questioning why, if the Holy Spirit maintains the integrity of scripture, he allowed things to go along for a millennia and a half before Luther came along.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 31 by Smythe]

ARE THERE BOOKS THAT HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM THE BIBLE BY COMPILERS?

The earliest catalogues do not include any apocrypha. While in subsequent centuries some were included in the bible collections (not always because they were viewed as divenly inspired*) this does not mean such writing belong in the bible canon. It was the Apostles and first century church that were initially in a position to authenticate Christian writings and the witness of the subsequent catalogues testify any controversy was fairly limited and excluded the apocryphal books entirely. Revelation, far from being "a charity case" has, given when it was written, relatively solid credentials.

*Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Tertullian Ignatius, Hermas, and Barnabas are writers that catalogued and commented on "the bible" (as it came to be known) Their mutual respect and references to each others work does NOT mean they viewed the work of their contempories or predecesors as part of the bible's sacred text.

Catalogs : List or catalogs of recognized books provide a historical record of how the bible developed. Below is a list of some of the earliest bible catalogues.


source: "All Scripture Inspired of God" pub WBTS 1963, study IV p. 303



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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 566#838566

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To learn more go to other posts related to...

THE BIBLE , COMPILATION and ... AUTHORSHIP & TRANSMISSION

[Red Wolf]

In the Gospel attributed to Matthew, the gospel writer makes an extraordinary claim concerning world geography. He wrote that the devil took Jesus to the top of a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world.
Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory Matthew 4:8

The disturbing thing is that this mountain does not exist. There is no mountain from which one can see all the kingdoms of the world.

I’m sure the writer of the gospel realized that if he observed from a high place he could see a lot further than if he observed from a low place. But he didn’t know that there was no mountain high enough to see all the kingdoms of the world and certainly he did not know that the world is round.

Matthew wasn’t present when supposedly the devil took Jesus up on that imaginary mountain, so we know that Jesus’ imaginary trip to the top of an imaginary mountain is just a fiction made up by Matthew or a later editor.

Dishonest in one, dishonest in all. It only takes one lie to make a liar. Certainly we cannot trust the integrity of the gospel attributed to Matthew.

[onewithhim]

In the Gospel attributed to Matthew, the gospel writer makes an extraordinary claim concerning world geography. He wrote that the devil took Jesus to the top of a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world.
Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory Matthew 4:8

The disturbing thing is that this mountain does not exist. There is no mountain from which one can see all the kingdoms of the world.

Of course not. We understand that the Devil showed Jesus all those things in a VISION.

[Red Wolf]

In the Gospel attributed to Matthew, the gospel writer makes an extraordinary claim concerning world geography. He wrote that the devil took Jesus to the top of a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world.
Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory Matthew 4:8

The disturbing thing is that this mountain does not exist. There is no mountain from which one can see all the kingdoms of the world.

Of course not. We understand that the Devil showed Jesus all those things in a VISION.

So the temptations never really happened....Jesus was just having visions because he was tired and very hungry?????You could say Jesus was a dreamer of dreams...
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall follow the Lord your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the Lord your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you.
Jesus got men to follow another god..a Trinity god. He got people to reject the law...God's commandments...
He seduced you from the way your God commanded you.

And how did Matthew know about these temptations....he wasn't with Jesus in the wilderness?

[JehovahsWitness]

In the Gospel attributed to Matthew, the gospel writer makes an extraordinary claim concerning world geography. He wrote that the devil took Jesus to the top of a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world.
Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory Matthew 4:8

The disturbing thing is that this mountain does not exist. There is no mountain from which one can see all the kingdoms of the world.

Of course not. We understand that the Devil showed Jesus all those things in a VISION.

So the temptations never really happened....Jesus was just having visions because he was tired and very hungry?

We believe that the Devil did interact with Jesus and this on a very literal level but that the temptation which involved a bargain for world power he (Satan) showed Jesus supernaturally the extent if his (Satan's) power in a vision.


JW

[brianbbs67]

In the Gospel attributed to Matthew, the gospel writer makes an extraordinary claim concerning world geography. He wrote that the devil took Jesus to the top of a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world.
Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory Matthew 4:8

The disturbing thing is that this mountain does not exist. There is no mountain from which one can see all the kingdoms of the world.

Of course not. We understand that the Devil showed Jesus all those things in a VISION.

So the temptations never really happened....Jesus was just having visions because he was tired and very hungry?????You could say Jesus was a dreamer of dreams...
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall follow the Lord your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the Lord your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you.
Jesus got men to follow another god..a Trinity god. He got people to reject the law...God's commandments...
He seduced you from the way your God commanded you.

And how did Matthew know about these temptations....he wasn't with Jesus in the wilderness?

This is posible only from space. However, no one had space travel at that time but God if you believe. If God is all powerful, he could let the Adversary tempt Christ this way.

Of course this brings up a question about Satan. Job tells us he appeared in court before God and argued that Job had it too easy.

It appears ha'Satan which literally means adversary, may be an employee of God. His assignment to tempt us. Early Hebrews and some today believe this. It actually makes sense. God wants to see what these humans do as regards to good and evil. So, he lets someone tempt them.

Sorry, sometimes I get carried away....lol. Please no one Implode.

[polonius]

In the Gospel attributed to Matthew, the gospel writer makes an extraordinary claim concerning world geography. He wrote that the devil took Jesus to the top of a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world.
Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory Matthew 4:8

The disturbing thing is that this mountain does not exist. There is no mountain from which one can see all the kingdoms of the world.

Of course not. We understand that the Devil showed Jesus all those things in a VISION.

RESPONSE: Where did you come up with the vision idea? Who is the "we" who makes this claim.

The writer named "Matthew" who was not an apostle would have no personal knowledge of any of this.

And can Jesus be tricked by the devil?

We're dealing with imagination not fact in this writer's yarn.

[onewithhim]

In the Gospel attributed to Matthew, the gospel writer makes an extraordinary claim concerning world geography. He wrote that the devil took Jesus to the top of a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world.
Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory Matthew 4:8

The disturbing thing is that this mountain does not exist. There is no mountain from which one can see all the kingdoms of the world.

Of course not. We understand that the Devil showed Jesus all those things in a VISION.

So the temptations never really happened....Jesus was just having visions because he was tired and very hungry?????

Sigh.

I'll try to explain. I didn't say that the whole scenario of Satan tempting Jesus was a vision. I said that Satan showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in a vision. Do you understand what a vision is? People, throughout the Bible, had visions. It was a way for people to see things that they couldn't truly see in real life, like all the kingdoms of the world in one sitting. Logically....after seeing the vision of all the various kingdoms, Satan then tempted Jesus with an offer he hoped He wouldn't refuse.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 35 by Red Wolf]

Pardon me....but just how did Jesus "get men to follow a trinity god?" That's a new one to me.