Is faith exercised by obedience...

[shnarkle]

Can we switch the means with the ends? Does it matter?

Does one exercise faith by odedience, or does one exercise obedience by faith? Is it obedience that allows us to exercise faith, or is it faith that allows us to exercise obedience?

Most understand that the Old Covenant stipulated that the children of Israel were entering into an agreement that allowed them a choice to follow God's law and receive blessing, or ignore it and receive malediction. It was their choice, and it was dependant upon their ability. The New Covenant is dependant upon the grace of God, through the faith of Christ. This is what produces fruit, and those who produce fruit are justified. Paul and James refer to this fruit as "works". So works are produced by faith.

However, under the old covenant, is it possible for works to produce faith? If one is obedient, wouldn't it be possible to see how following God's law makes sense, and wouldn't this reinforce one's belief in the wisdom and benevolence of God? Wouldn't one then be able to have their faith built up, and reinforced by seeing God's blessings in their life? Isn't this effected by their obedience?

If one follows God's commands regarding finances, and commercial endeavors, and this leads to financial independance and economic prosperity, wouldn't this lead one to believe that God's laws are not only beneficial, but also reinforce one's faith in God as well?

If one follows the cleaniliness laws, for whatever reason; and discovers that they're healthier than they were before they began to keep them, wouldn't this reinforce one's faith in God?

Self absorbed, self centered people tend to be a bit testy. They don't like anyone impinging or imposing on them, but God's law says to make accommodations for those who need help. People who help others tend to have a more positive level of self esteem, or at least feel better about themselves and their fellow human beings. They see that they have something to contribute to society rather than being a burden on society. Aren't these improved feelings due to their obedience to God's law? Or are they rather the product of faith exercised in order to be obedient?

Can obedience be the means to exercising faith? Is it possible for works to produce faith?

I think Paul has an answer to this last question. I think he would show that this isn't the case under the old testament or the new, but I can't recall where he addresses this issue.

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 29 by brianbbs67]

You have been given eyes to see Brian. And It appears as though you are beginning to see the truth.
You are right about the feast. It is still the law

I think it's in the same book that says that in the end days the Messiah will offer a sin sacrifice for HIMSELF and one for the nation.

How can that be? Christianity holds that Jesus died once for all sins. And if the Messiah is done Demi God or God who is sinless why does he need to offer a sacrifice for himself?

And the church says the sacrificial system is no longer necessary. That it is passé also.

Scripture tells us that sacrifices will not happen for many days. Meaning years. But it will be reinstated. It tells us that Israel will also be without a king for awhile.

Yes, all will keep the feast of tabernacles or suffer the consequences. There is one people who has always upheld the feast as law. The Jews.
They are the sufferering servent. THEY have suffered for the sins of the world. Blamed for all the evil.

[PinSeeker]

Zechariah shows what is evidenced elsewhere in the OT and NT. God's law is for Israel and those who Sojourn with Israel. There is one law for both. One for mankind.

As a Christian, brianbbs, I very much agree. But what -- or who -- is Israel? I can give an answer to that, but I'd like to hear yours; thus the question.

[brianbbs67]

Zechariah shows what is evidenced elsewhere in the OT and NT. God's law is for Israel and those who Sojourn with Israel. There is one law for both. One for mankind.

As a Christian, brianbbs, I very much agree. But what -- or who -- is Israel? I can give an answer to that, but I'd like to hear yours; thus the question.

Israel is those who follow the way of christ which was Torah pure. Not the tradtions of men christ railed against as those things kept God's law from being followed. As he put it, "teaching as doctrines(God given law) the traditions of men." It would include any descendants of Israel and Foreigners (Goyim, gentile, out of covenant) that had converted.

In short, we have been misled for at least 1700 to 1800 years by those with itching ears and Pagan back grounds(Greece and Rome). "Many will cry, lord, lord, have we not healed the sick and cast out demons in your name? Yeshua replied " Get away from me you workers of lawlessness!." Wording has been softened and out right inserted to make the church's doctrine seem right. This is how only a remnant will remain.

Here's a quick test to show this. Read all 4 Gospels and write down what christ commands. Forget what you think you know about Paul's message or others and see just how many times Christ says to follow the law or follow what he commanded which was the law. Its at least 40 times. And since the Prophets have not all comes to pass, niether can God's law which is said to be perfect, liberty and leads to blessing.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 29 by brianbbs67]

You have been given eyes to see Brian. And It appears as though you are beginning to see the truth.
You are right about the feast. It is still the law

I think it's in the same book that says that in the end days the Messiah will offer a sin sacrifice for HIMSELF and one for the nation.

How can that be? Christianity holds that Jesus died once for all sins. And if the Messiah is done Demi God or God who is sinless why does he need to offer a sacrifice for himself?

And the church says the sacrificial system is no longer necessary. That it is passé also.

Scripture tells us that sacrifices will not happen for many days. Meaning years. But it will be reinstated. It tells us that Israel will also be without a king for awhile.

Yes, all will keep the feast of tabernacles or suffer the consequences. There is one people who has always upheld the feast as law. The Jews.
They are the sufferering servent. THEY have suffered for the sins of the world. Blamed for all the evil.

I have prayed for eyes that see and ears that hear, day and night earnestly and studied hours ever night. About 4 years ago my ears started to hear and then my eyes were opened.

The original disciples of Jesus were still making sacrifices and Paul was too and participated in a nazarite vow. The Karites would be sacrificing today if they ever could find a documented ancestry of one of the Levites alive today. Its on their website.

The only reason sacrifices aren't happening today is the Lack of a Temple. When God raises a new Jerusalem sacrifices start again but every one reads by these thing in the Bible. Like Snarkle said, It is Very Strange that God would end His law(which is eternal, forever) when Messiah comes and then it starts back up when He returns???

That is nonsense and illogical.

[PinSeeker]

Israel is those who follow the way of christ which was Torah pure. Not the tradtions of men christ railed against as those things kept God's law from being followed. As he put it, "teaching as doctrines(God given law) the traditions of men." It would include any descendants of Israel and Foreigners (Goyim, gentile, out of covenant) that had converted.

In short, we have been misled for at least 1700 to 1800 years by those with itching ears and Pagan back grounds(Greece and Rome). "Many will cry, lord, lord, have we not healed the sick and cast out demons in your name? Yeshua replied " Get away from me you workers of lawlessness!." Wording has been softened and out right inserted to make the church's doctrine seem right. This is how only a remnant will remain.

Again, brianbbs, I don't disagree with you concerning the law, and that we are to keep it... although I would say (not sure if you would or not):

1. the civil and ceremonial parts of the law are no longer in effect (it is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness,for the law never made anything perfect; Hebrews 7). All things are now blessed to us in Jesus (Christ, Yeshua), and only the moral remains. The law is summed up now -- as Jesus said -- by the two great commandments, which are a.) to love the Lord thy God, and b.) to love your neighbor.

2. it is impossible for us, just as it was for the Israelites of old, to keep the law perfectly (or even come close) because of our sin. We all fall short of God's glory. That's why we all need Jesus (Christ, Yeshua)... He alone bridges that gap for us.

I Invite your comments on that, but what I was really asking is, who makes up God's Israel? I think you answered that: all believers, regardless of ethnicity; God's Israel is made up of True Jews (Romans 2:28), which does include ethnic Jews who repent of their sin and believe in Christ, but also people of every tongue, tribe, and nation who repent of their sin and believe in Christ. This is God's Israel. As Paul says in Romans 11, a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved. Am I correct in understanding you? If so, then we are in agreement on that, too.

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 33 by brianbbs67]

I guess we do disagree on the Temple and the sacrificial system, though. Or maybe not. Here's what I would say to that:

SACRIFICE
The sacrificial system of the Israelites pointed to the True Savior and His atonement, which would actually be effectual for redemption, to come. When Jesus, God's Lamb without blemish, was sacrificed, literal sacrifice was ended forever. The writer of Hebrews quotes from the Old Testament, saying:

"This is the Covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD; I will put my laws upon their heart, and on their mind I will write them."

And then he says:

"Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin."


TEMPLE
The same sort of principle holds here. Jesus was always the True Temple; the temples of the Old Testament merely pointed to and represented the true temple to come, Christ Jesus. Jesus and His people ARE the temple (Ephesians 2), Jesus being the Cornerstone, the prophets and apostles the foundation, and all of us the whole building, being fitted together, growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom we also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Comments?

[brianbbs67]

Israel is those who follow the way of christ which was Torah pure. Not the tradtions of men christ railed against as those things kept God's law from being followed. As he put it, "teaching as doctrines(God given law) the traditions of men." It would include any descendants of Israel and Foreigners (Goyim, gentile, out of covenant) that had converted.

In short, we have been misled for at least 1700 to 1800 years by those with itching ears and Pagan back grounds(Greece and Rome). "Many will cry, lord, lord, have we not healed the sick and cast out demons in your name? Yeshua replied " Get away from me you workers of lawlessness!." Wording has been softened and out right inserted to make the church's doctrine seem right. This is how only a remnant will remain.

Again, brianbbs, I don't disagree with you concerning the law, and that we are to keep it... although I would say (not sure if you would or not):

1. the civil and ceremonial parts of the law are no longer in effect (it is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness,for the law never made anything perfect; Hebrews 7). All things are now blessed to us in Jesus (Christ, Yeshua), and only the moral remains. The law is summed up now -- as Jesus said -- by the two great commandments, which are a.) to love the Lord thy God, and b.) to love your neighbor.

2. it is impossible for us, just as it was for the Israelites of old, to keep the law perfectly (or even come close) because of our sin. We all fall short of God's glory. That's why we all need Jesus (Christ, Yeshua)... He alone bridges that gap for us.

I Invite your comments on that, but what I was really asking is, who makes up God's Israel? I think you answered that: all believers, regardless of ethnicity; God's Israel is made up of True Jews (Romans 2:28), which does include ethnic Jews who repent of their sin and believe in Christ, but also people of every tongue, tribe, and nation who repent of their sin and believe in Christ. This is God's Israel. As Paul says in Romans 11, a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved. Am I correct in understanding you? If so, then we are in agreement on that, too.

Grace and peace to you.

Yes, any of the law dealing with sacrifice and Temple observe can not apply in our current state. Nor can any of the law apply that is in affect on God's theocracy as we don't live under that theocracy now.

The rest would still apply. Notice I did not say the law that is not applicable due to our current state, is abolished. It just can't be followed as God instructed due to no temple or Hebrew theocracy.

The dietary, feasts and Sabbath can be kept as we live now. Although, its more of a memorial honoring God as regards to feasts like Unleaven bread where a temple appearance was required.

The Sabbath(friday sunset-Saturday sunset) can easily be followed. So can the rest of the Decalogue. Much of the other 603 laws do not apply at this time but according to scripture will when christ and God return. So why would we follow in the past and not follow after christ and then follow again when the Lord's day comes?

As to the summing up of the law, Hebrews were always doing this. It did not negate the rest. It was just a short way of saying , if you do these the rest is easy. The Shema, Duet. 6:4, is what Jesus was quoting in the first. The second was common thinking at the time. As you can not love anyone else if you don't love yourself. Most of Jesus' quotes are of the Torah and the rest came from the philosophy of bet Hillel. Hillel was the leader of the Pharisees around Christ's time and was considered the one type of pharisee that was good. The type that does God's will because he loves him.

In the 15th psalm David summed up 613 injunctions to 11. None of this negated the rest. That would be western(greek) thinking.

Israel is composed, as I said of anyone who follows God accoring to His instructions(Torah literally means this).

As to the sacrifice, notice I said the Karites would be doing it today. 60% of Judiasm prior to 1000ad was Karite. Not so much now. No sacrifice will start until the 3rd temple is built. But, then it will be destroyed and God will establish His rule and Temple.

Peace to you also. Shabbot shalom.