Was Paul a Trinitarian?

[Elijah John]

Was Paul a Trinitarian?

[polonius]

[Replying to post 28 by polonius]

My question was regard to your post #19; I cannot see any reference to John 20:25-28 in that post.

RESPONSE: Perhaps because I was not writing about John there.

[polonius]

[4]Most scholars and historians say that Christianity began as a sect and renewal movement within Judaism and that for the first few decades Christianity wasn’t seen as totally distinct from Judaism. The Council of Jerusalem (50 A.D) was the basis for the split between Judaism and Christianity, but that the break finally came in between a 60 year period from 70 A.D (destruction of the Second Temple) and 132 A.D (Bar Kokhba revolt).

RESPONSE: Not at all. It was the reason for mutual toleration.

“Jesus’ half-brother James, who had become a leader of the church in Jerusalem, agreed with Peter and declared, “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God� (Acts 15:19). The Jerusalem Council then proceeded to give four “rules� that Gentile Christians should live by. These were not rules the Gentiles must follow in order to be saved. Rather, the rules were to build harmony between Jewish and Gentile Christians in the first century. The four rules the Jerusalem Council decided upon were that Gentile Christians should abstain from food polluted by idols, sexual immorality, the meat of strangled animals, and blood. The instructions were not intended to guarantee salvation but to promote peace within the early church.

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 28 by polonius]

My study of John 20:28:
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... god.html

[polonius]

JW posted:

...but that the break finally came in between a 60 year period from 70 A.D (destruction of the Second Temple) and 132 A.D (Bar Kokhba revolt).

RESPONSE: No, as I noted, the parting of the ways can be narrowed down to the first
part of the 80's between when in Acts Peter described the role of Jesus as a special man and the 12 Benediction which condemned Christians (and some others) as agnostics or heretics. This dates from about 85 AD

"The primary area in which the tannaim imposed restrictions on the Jewish Christians was in regard to the synagogue. The birkat haminim, the benediction against heretics, was adapted from an older benediction, the purpose of which was to ask divine punishment on the paroshim, those who had separated themselves from the community. This benediction was now reformulated to include explicit mention of the minim, here primarily Jewish Christians. In this way, the birkat haminim functioned to exclude such people from serving as precentors in the synagogue. Indeed, this benediction probably went a long way toward making the Jewish Christians feel unwelcome in the synagogue and causing them to worship separately.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 34 by polonius]

RESPONSE: No, as I noted, the parting of the ways can be narrowed down to the first
part of the 80's between when in Acts Peter described the role of Jesus as a special man and

Nope; incorrect dating.

Acts records events that all happened before the 70's.

[JehovahsWitness]

My question was regard to your post #19; I cannot see any reference to John 20:25-28 in that post.

RESPONSE: Perhaps because I was not writing about John there

Ok so was anything on post #19 ( see below) being presented as a response to the question: So what is your source for Christians claiming Jesus to be divine (Binitarianism) in 82/83 A.D.?

Tigger 2 asked:

So what is your source for Christians claiming Jesus to be divine (Binitarianism) in 82/83 A.D.?

RESPONSE:

[1] Written by Luke c. 80 AD, Supposedly spoken my Peter

"You who are Israelites, hear these words. Jesus the Nazorean was a man commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst, as you yourselves know

The widely held view that Jesus was special in some way but not divine himself was condemned in 325 AD by the Council of Nicea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/[b]Binitarianism
[/b]
“ Hurtado's view might be interpreted as [2] urging that, at this stage in the development of the Church's understanding, it could be said that God is a person (the Father) and one being; and that Jesus is distinct from the Father, was pre-existent with God, and also originating from God without becoming a being separate from him, so that he is God (the Son). This view of a binitarian pattern of devotion would posit a unity of God's being and a oneness of the object of worship, which is sympathetic to its predecessor view in Judaism; and it also displays a plurality of simultaneous identities, which is sympathetic to its successor in trinitarianism. It is a development in understanding of Christ, in other words, from which arose several subsequent ones in the further course of development that eventually came into conflict with one another.


http://explorefaith.org/faq/church/judaism.html


[3]“As the Jesus Movement spread and came into contact with other influences, such as Greek philosophy and Roman cultural centers outside Judea and Syria, the movement felt a growing need to differentiate itself from other religions and philosophies. They did so in the time-honored practice of declaring their views true and other views false. At the same time, Rome was engaged in ruthlessly repressing Jewish revolts. Some Jesus people interpreted those devastating attacks as further signs of their rightness.�

https://forums.catholic.com/t/when-did- ... ism/425637

[4]Most scholars and historians say that Christianity began as a sect and renewal movement within Judaism and that for the first few decades Christianity wasn’t seen as totally distinct from Judaism. The Council of Jerusalem (50 A.D) was the basis for the split between Judaism and Christianity, but that the break finally came in between a 60 year period from 70 A.D (destruction of the Second Temple) and 132 A.D (Bar Kokhba revolt).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_haMinim

[5]“The writing of the benediction is attributed to Shmuel ha-Katan at the supposed Council of Jamnia which was inserted in the "Eighteen Benedictions" as the 19th blessing in the silent prayer to be said thrice daily, the Amidah. The benediction is thus seen as related to the Pharisees, the development of the Hebrew Bible canon, the split of early Christianity and Judaism as heresy in Judaism, the origins of Rabbinic Judaism, origins of Christianity, Christianity in the 1st century, and the history of early Christianity.�
"Two medieval Cairo Genizah copies include references to both minim and Notzrim("Nazarenes", i.e. "Christians").[7][8][9]

The "Third" member of the Trinity was added by the Council of Constance in about 380 A.D.

[6]Acts of the Apostles chapter 2, Peter speaking about 80 AD.

"This man, delivered up by the set plan and foreknowledge of God, you killed, using lawless men to crucify him.

But God raised him up, releasing him from the throes of death, because it was impossible for him to be held by it.l

NB. Jesus is not divine and "raised" by God, that is, did not"rise" by his own power.

NUMBRRS added by myself for clarity

[JehovahsWitness]

Duplicate (sorry)

[JehovahsWitness]

Hurtado LW. Lord Jesus Christ, Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity. William B. Eerdmans Publishing, Grand Rapids, 2003, pp. 52-53.


Interestingly, his book, (which at least one University of Notre Dame scholar calls "A fantastic work! Larry Hurtado has written what may well prove to be one of the more important works on Jesus in this generation"), demonstrates that there was a binitarian view in Christianity that can be proven from the early first century (from about the time of Christ's death) and that Professor Hurtado concludes that the trinitarian view came to be dominant later (Ibid, p.651).

Binitarian from about the time of Jesus death.

I havent read the book so could you briefly outline what PROOF the author presents to support his views,


Thanks


JW

[polonius]

Hurtado LW. Lord Jesus Christ, Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity. William B. Eerdmans Publishing, Grand Rapids, 2003, pp. 52-53.


Interestingly, his book, (which at least one University of Notre Dame scholar calls "A fantastic work! Larry Hurtado has written what may well prove to be one of the more important works on Jesus in this generation"), demonstrates that there was a binitarian view in Christianity that can be proven from the early first century (from about the time of Christ's death) and that Professor Hurtado concludes that the trinitarian view came to be dominant later (Ibid, p.651).

Binitarian from about the time of Jesus death.

I havent read the book so could you briefly outline what PROOF the author presents to support his views,


Thanks


JW

RESPONSE: Then why did you cite it????

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 39 by polonius]

If you look back I was referencing post #19 inquiring as to its relevance to the question.


Here is post #19
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 692#964692

Here is my question

IS any of the above supposed to support the idea that first century Christians believed Jesus to be "divine" as in the sense equal to and himself, Almighty God (Binitarianism)?