Does God's love and mercy transcend theology?

[Elijah John]

Is God bigger than any given theology? Does His love and mercy transcend theological claims of exclusivity, such as found in Fundamentalist Islam or Fundamentalist Christianity?

Does God's love and mercy go well beyond even John 3.16 or John 14.6?

Does God judge people on getting their theology "right", believing the right things about Jesus, for example?

Or is God more concerned about the loving-kindness in our hearts and how we treat our fellow human beings?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 18 by Elijah John]

About Micah 6:6,7.....Animal sacrifices, even to the point of "thousands of rams," were meaningless to God if those offering them did not treat their fellowman properly. "For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen," writes the Apostle John, "cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen." (I John 4:20)

So, don't we see that the sacrifices were God ordained and necessary, to show their obedience to Him, and yet they were meaningless if the people who offered their animal sacrifices were not living according to the rest of the Law, treating their neighbors with disdain?

It's good to treat our neighbor's with lovingkindness, and to love God. That is worth more than all the sacrifices...

Micah was also saying those things are worth more. And if worth more, doesn't that make blood sacrifice obsolete? "By mercy and truth is sin atoned for" according to Solomon.

In fact, the way I read it is that Micah was saying that all that God requires is lovingkindness and humility, nothing more. That leaves no room for blood sacrifice. It's superfluous. Micah was contrasting those spiritual qualities to the vanity of blood sacrifice.

And Hosea, (and Jesus), "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." The prophets did not say "I desire mercy and sacrifice".

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post by Elijah John]

So who do you believe, the Bible and Jesus? Or the unknown author of Hebrews, who, it seems got it very wrong.

We believe the Bible, which includes Jesus and Hebrews, and all the passages you reject or object to.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post by Elijah John]

So who do you believe, the Bible and Jesus? Or the unknown author of Hebrews, who, it seems got it very wrong.

We believe the Bible, which includes Jesus and Hebrews, and all the passages you reject or object to.

Then do you believe "I desire mercy NOT sacrifice" or not?. Both Jesus and Hosea affirmed this. Conventional Christians seem to give more credibility to the unknown author of Hebrews than they do Jesus, John the Baptist and the prophets, all of whom preach forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood.

I have demonstrated from the Bible that there is forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood. The notion is Biblical. (The LORD'S Prayer, the Parables, The Beattitude, Micah 6.6-8, Hosea 6.6, Psalm 50.8-15, Jer. 7.21-24, Proverbs 16.6, Psalm 51.15-17, etc, etc). That is a good chunk of the Bible that you are ignoring in favor of your Pauline blood theology. Why is that? Why do put Paul and the author of Hebrews above Jesus? Do Jesus and the Prophets really need Paul and the unknown author of Hebrews as their interpreter? Jesus and the Prophets speak for themselves in the Bible. I didn't make this stuff up, nor did I write those passages in the Bible which refute the notion of blood atonement.

Also, consider this:

He went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins,.

Luke 3.3

No shedding of blood in John's baptisms, only baptism, repentance and forgiveness. According the Luke's account, the unknown author of Hebrews is just plain wrong. The unknown author of Hebrews is at odds with John, Jesus, and the Prophets, as demonstrated above, from the Bible.

And let me leave you with this. Where is there mention of blood atonement in the parable of the Prodigal Son? Seems to me that Jesus in his ministry only preached repentance and the Father's mercy, not blood atonement.

Why did Jesus preach forgiveness through prayer not blood sacrifice? (Again the "Our Father")

Also, what does it say about the Father to believe he needs or desires blood in order to forgive? A very dim view, imo. The way I read it, He needs only contrite and devoted hearts.

The ancient Hebrews outgrew their need to believe God needs to be appeased with blood. It's a shame that Paul and his disciples have reverted to that pagan notion.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 33 by Elijah John]

Also, what does it say about the Father to believe he needs or desires blood in order to forgive? A very dim view, imo. The way I read it, He needs only contrite and devoted hearts.

The ancient Hebrews outgrew their need to believe God needs to be appeased with blood. It's a shame that Paul and his disciples have reverted to that pagan notion.

Hi, EJ.

Yes, it is the way you read it, it is your imo.

It isn't the way I read it. And imo it isn't the way to read what is there.

The Bible does not support or advocate any "pagan notion".

I am still deciding whether to answer your various points; probably I will in due course!

Whatever, "Your will be done on earth..."

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 18 by Elijah John]

About Micah 6:6,7.....Animal sacrifices, even to the point of "thousands of rams," were meaningless to God if those offering them did not treat their fellowman properly. "For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen," writes the Apostle John, "cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen." (I John 4:20)

So, don't we see that the sacrifices were God ordained and necessary, to show their obedience to Him, and yet they were meaningless if the people who offered their animal sacrifices were not living according to the rest of the Law, treating their neighbors with disdain?

It's good to treat our neighbor's with lovingkindness, and to love God. That is worth more than all the sacrifices...

Micah was also saying those things are worth more. And if worth more, doesn't that make blood sacrifice obsolete? "By mercy and truth is sin atoned for" according to Solomon.

In fact, the way I read it is that Micah was saying that all that God requires is lovingkindness and humility, nothing more. That leaves no room for blood sacrifice. It's superfluous. Micah was contrasting those spiritual qualities to the vanity of blood sacrifice.

And Hosea, (and Jesus), "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." The prophets did not say "I desire mercy and sacrifice".

No, the fact that treating people with lovingkindness is necessary for Jehovah to accept the blood sacrifices does not mean that the OBEDIENCE of sacrificing animals is not necessary. It's all about obedience. The Israelites flaunted their disobedience for centuries. It was mandatory that they sacrifice the animals according to the Law, AND ALSO that they were merciful and kind and loving. If they were not loving, their sacrifices would not be accepted.

Sacrifice was already a part of the Law. Everyone knew that they were necessary. The fact that the Jews weren't treating their brethren with mercy was the fact that was being focused on.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post by Elijah John]

So who do you believe, the Bible and Jesus? Or the unknown author of Hebrews, who, it seems got it very wrong.

We believe the Bible, which includes Jesus and Hebrews, and all the passages you reject or object to.

Then do you believe "I desire mercy NOT sacrifice" or not?. Both Jesus and Hosea affirmed this. Conventional Christians seem to give more credibility to the unknown author of Hebrews than they do Jesus, John the Baptist and the prophets, all of whom preach forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood.

You say that Jesus preached forgiveness without the shedding of blood? He was the foremost proponent of it. He was the one who shed his blood as "the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world." (John 1:29, which was the utterance of John the Baptist.)

[JehovahsWitness]

(The LORD'S Prayer, the Parables, The Beattitude, Micah 6.6-8, Hosea 6.6, Psalm 50.8-15, Jer. 7.21-24, Proverbs 16.6, Psalm 51.15-17, etc, etc). That is a good chunk of the Bible that you are ignoring in favor of your Pauline blood theology.

ATONEMENT & FORGIVENESS : WHAT DID JESUS TEACH?

How is it MERCY if it still requires payment?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 668#963668

What is the difference between mercy, forgiveness and atonement?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 929#837929

Does the ransom sacrifice of Jesus contradict the principle of believers forgiving others in personal relationships?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 307#827307

Why is there no mention if blood sacrifice in The LORD'S Prayer, the Parables or The Beattitudes?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 638#962638

LUKE 3.3: How can John's baptisms for the forgiveness of sins, be explained?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 539#962539

Did God not forgive people PRIOR to Jesus sacrifice?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 891#909891

DO THESE SCRIPTURES REALLY IMPLY GOD REJECTED THE REQUIREMENT OF BLOOD SACRIFICE?

Micah 6.6-8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 019#801019

Hosea 6.6
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 942#800942

Psalm 50.8-15
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 621#887621

Psalm 51.15-17
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 350#853350

Proverbs 16.6
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 803#853803

Jer. 7.21-24
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 871#853871

MORE SCRIPTURES EXPLAINED...

Matthew 9:13 ; Matthew 12:7
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 302#827302

1 Samuel 15.22; Proverbs 21:2-3
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 355#853355

Mark 12:33
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 468#917468

THE PROPHETS AND CHRISTIAN BIBLE WRITERS

Did the Patriarchs and PROPHETS preach against blood sacrifice?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 863#800863

Do all the gospel writers refer to Jesus blood sacrifice?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 647#887647

Did OTHER* Christian bible writers adhere to the teaching of Jesus offering himself as a blood sacrifice?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 119#827119

Why did the other Christian writers not discuss the notion of Jesus blood sacrifice AS MUCH AS Paul?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 493#887493

* Writers OTHER than those that wrote the Gospel of John, Hebrews and the letters of Paul.




RELATED POSTS

If Jesus gave an acceptable blood sacrifice, why did he not have to present himself to the High Priest at the TEMPLE?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 048#801048

WHY is blood related to atonement? What is so special about BLOOD?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 886#909886

For more, information please go to posts related to ...

SIN, BLOOD SACRIFICE and ...RANSOM

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 37 by JehovahsWitness]

HOW IS IT MERCY IF IT STILL REQUIRES PAYMENT?

Mercy doesn't require repayment, rectification requires payment.

To illustrate: Somebody burns down your house. Your children now have nowhere to live. The arsonist is sorry and explains it was an accident. He begs for mercy, he has no money, is physically handicapped and cannot rebuild your house. You take into account his situation and decide to forgive him, you extend mercy and do not demand the usual punishment for his act.

Do you now have a house back? Are your children no longer sleeping in the street because you were merciful?

Mercy doesn't rectify a wrong, it a lightens judgment or punishment for the wrong. As in the illustration though, some wrongs have dire consequences for others and so justice demands it be rectified., if not by the wrongdoer, by somebody. The original sin was one such act. We are Adam's children and we have been sleeping in the garage since Adam burnt our house (our perfect sinless existence in paradise) down to the ground.

The Ransom (Jesus blood sacrifice) is effectively, rebuilding the house, repairing the damage, rectifying the wrong.

1 CORINTHIANS 15:45

"So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.� The last Adam became a life-giving spirit" - NWT

ROMANS 5:18

"So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, so too through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is their being declared righteous for life" - NWT

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS


RELATED POSTS

Why did God not just ignore the original sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 933#848933

Why was there a need for a ransom?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 190#852190

Is it not said that a person's death "pays" for his sins? If so why the need for a ransom?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 112#910112

Why does the bible refer to Jesus as "The last Adam"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 850#959850

To learn more go to other posts related to ...


LIFE, DEATH and ...REDEMPTION

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 33 by Elijah John]

hen do you believe "I desire mercy NOT sacrifice" or not?. Both Jesus and Hosea affirmed this. Conventional Christians seem to give more credibility to the unknown author of Hebrews than they do Jesus, John the Baptist and the prophets, all of whom preach forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood.

I have demonstrated from the Bible that there is forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood. The notion is Biblical. (The LORD'S Prayer, the Parables, The Beattitude, Micah 6.6-8, Hosea 6.6, Psalm 50.8-15, Jer. 7.21-24, Proverbs 16.6, Psalm 51.15-17, etc, etc). That is a good chunk of the Bible that you are ignoring in favor of your Pauline blood theology. Why is that? Why do put Paul and the author of Hebrews above Jesus? Do Jesus and the Prophets really need Paul and the unknown author of Hebrews as their interpreter? Jesus and the Prophets speak for themselves in the Bible. I didn't make this stuff up, nor did I write those passages in the Bible which refute the notion of blood atonement.

Yes, I do believe "I desire mercy, not sacrifice".

That is, I believe what God intends us to rather than reading it as carte blanche for the wholesale rejection of the principle of blood atonement.

I do so by refusing to reject a good chunk of the Bible, but instead use sound hermeneutics to come to a balanced and truthful conclusion.

I did not write those passages in the Bible that affirm and promote the notion of blood atonement/sacrifice, and thus refute your notion of no blood atonement.

[kcplusdc@yahoo.com]

God is love.
Gods love has no if' s, and's or butts!
Or regular but's for that matter.

It's not dependant on you, it's independent of anything you can do, no creed or song and dance can interrupt it's flow, there is no where you can go to hide from it.

As a teacher perhaps you have had success reaching the lost student? Not the student where you show him love and he shows you his back, the student where love is an offence, a foreign language, a child where you wonder if he's worth the effort.
The student that you let go of results, no possibility that love will ever be recipracted, a love with no buts or ifs.... a love where love is truly needed.
THIS is the glory of God, love without dimension or boundaries. A miracle of his greatness.

Worried about sin? Feel disconnected from God?
Burn a lamb.
Still worried? Still feel lost?
Kill my Son, kill Me?
Do whatever it takes for you to realize that you have always been free.
If you see the Buddha on the road kill him too...

There is no tricks, traps or snares. No ifs and or buts.You are not lost, cursed or separated from his glory. Pick up your mat and walk.