"I forgive you but SOMEONE has to pay!"

[Elijah John]

If someone says "I forgive you, but someone has to pay, how about my innocent Son?" Would that really be forgiveness?

Does true mercy require "payment"? If so, how is it still mercy?

If a loan is forgiven, does the creditor require payment from someone else?

Isn't God capable of forgiving the contrite, without "payment"?

[ttruscott]

Christianity can healthily regard Adam as a a metaphor; the fruit he ate being symbolic of some wrong turn.

Accept Adam as metaphor and before you know it someone might just suggest Jesus was a metaphor...oh wait, you just did!

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 30 by kcplusdc@yahoo.com]

I'm not sure I can wrap my head around a God that needs or for that matter requires forgiveness.

Good, God doesn't need or require forgiveness.

God does not require anything more than He is,

Why do you require God to need existence?

otherwise he would be lacking, which is not God.

Your god already seems to need existence. He already lacks transcendence which reduces him to a creation of your own imagination. That's easy to wrap one's head around.

Our actions (known by him before we even act) do not change his goodness.

While what happens doesn't change God's goodness, it seems odd that you look at these actions as yours, when you acknowledge that God already knows, and even predestines them. Everything that happens is according to his will, not yours.

Why would he wait around for eternity for someone to ask or grant forgiveness?

He wouldn't, but then this doesn't negate forgiveness as an atribute of God. In other words, what effective difference is there between one who truly forgives another and one who doesn't even see that a wrong has been committed?

In my mind forgiveness comes from a lack, it is not an optimal state of being, there fore God does not require it.

Forgiveness does not come from lacking anything. Forgiveness indicates power while a lack of forgiveiness indicates an inability to let go of the imperfections of others, not to mention one's own imperfections. This is why it is seen as a divine attribute.

[shnarkle]

Christianity can healthily regard Adam as a a metaphor; the fruit he ate being symbolic of some wrong turn.

Accept Adam as metaphor and before you know it someone might just suggest Jesus was a metaphor...oh wait, you just did!

Christ is a metaphor. Paul points out that Christ is the only mediator between God and humanity. This is what a metaphor is; i.e. a mediator. The figure is contained exclusively in the copula (the verb e.g. the first person singular verb to be "I am"), and denotes representation. Christ represents God to humanity, and is humanity's representative to God.

[kcplusdc@yahoo.com]

If I make a robot with the capability to do something that I don't like, or the desire to do things I don't want them to do, that's just the way they are. Why would they need to ask for forgiveness or hy would they need to get forgiveness from me?
I would argue that seperation from God is an illusion. A story.

When the wise men asked what Jesus thought they should do with the woman at the well, he basically said, don't bother me with that I'm doing something more important like drawing on the ground here.

As I recall the most excitement shown by Christ was when someone didn't require him to do anything, they reached out and touched him and that was that. They released themselves from the illusion.

[shnarkle]

If I make a robot with the capability to do something that I don't like, or the desire to do things I don't want them to do, that's just the way they are. Why would they need to ask for forgiveness or hy would they need to get forgiveness from me?
I would argue that seperation from God is an illusion. A story.

When the wise men asked what Jesus thought they should do with the woman at the well, he basically said, don't bother me with that I'm doing something more important like drawing on the ground here.

As I recall the most excitement shown by Christ was when someone didn't require him to do anything, they reached out and touched him and that was that. They released themselves from the illusion.

Yes, separation from God is a delusion. Christ says, "Apart from me you can do nothing". The delusion begins in the garden story when Adam, who is created in God's image, comes to the conclusion that he isn't like God at all. It's the first example of identity politics, and God respects Adam's decision to believe that he isn't actually created in God's image, and points out that by choosing to identity with his body of dirt, his new identity will die with that body.

[ttruscott]

If I make a robot with the capability to do something that I don't like, or the desire to do things I don't want them to do, that's just the way they are. Why would they need to ask for forgiveness or hy would they need to get forgiveness from me?

I'm confused... Are you arguing that we are robots? If so, why does GOD create robots to marry?

Revelation 19:
The Marriage of the Lamb
6 And I heard a sound like the roar of a great multitude, like the rushing of many waters, and like a mighty rumbling of thunder, crying out: “Hallelujah! For our Lord God, the Almighty, reigns.
7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him the glory. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready. 8 She was given clothing of fine linen, bright and pure.� For the fine linen she wears is the righteous acts of the saints. 9 Then the angel told me to write, “Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.� And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.�

Do you think GOD is accepting of a Stepford Wife?

[ttruscott]

If I make a robot with the capability to do something that I don't like, or the desire to do things I don't want them to do, that's just the way they are. Why would they need to ask for forgiveness or hy would they need to get forgiveness from me?
I would argue that seperation from God is an illusion. A story.

Yes, separation from God is a delusion.

Oh my...really? Does GOD lie or jest ? about such things?

Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear 2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Isaiah 1:15
When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; even though you multiply your prayers, I will not listen.

Deuteronomy 31:17,18 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?

Christ says, "Apart from me you can do nothing".

This does not prove that there are NOT some people who are apart from Him... He is speaking to His sheep, not the goats; to His elect good seed that He has sown into the world NOT to the reprobate seed of the devil called tares and goats.

The delusion begins in the garden story when Adam, who is created in God's image, comes to the conclusion that he isn't like God at all.

Just curious here: what phrasing in the story implies this fact to you? I am NOT orthodox about Adam and Eve but this is new to me...

It's the first example of identity politics, and God respects Adam's decision to believe that he isn't actually created in God's image, and points out that by choosing to identity with his body of dirt, his new identity will die with that body.

Wow - without a lot more exegesis of the story and support verses this is past the pale, over the top etc etc and needs corroboration and explanation...

[shnarkle]

If I make a robot with the capability to do something that I don't like, or the desire to do things I don't want them to do, that's just the way they are. Why would they need to ask for forgiveness or hy would they need to get forgiveness from me?
I would argue that seperation from God is an illusion. A story.

Yes, separation from God is a delusion.

Oh my...really? Does GOD lie or jest ? about such things?

I can only speak for myself.

Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear 2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Isaiah 1:15
When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; even though you multiply your prayers, I will not listen.

Deuteronomy 31:17,18 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?

Evidently, you have a different perspective.

Christ says, "Apart from me you can do nothing".

This does not prove that there are NOT some people who are apart from Him... He is speaking to His sheep, not the goats; to His elect good seed that He has sown into the world NOT to the reprobate seed of the devil called tares and goats.

Sure, but then I wasn't denying that. However, I will point out that there are those who may very well be born again, and have no affiliation whatsoever with Christianity in any of its modern forms. Christ himself pointed out to his disciples that those who are not against us are for or with us.

[

quote]The delusion begins in the garden story when Adam, who is created in God's image, comes to the conclusion that he isn't like God at all.

Just curious here: what phrasing in the story implies this fact to you? I am NOT orthodox about Adam and Eve but this is new to me...[/quote]

That's why it's called "the good news". It wouldn't be new if it was old.

It's the first example of identity politics, and God respects Adam's decision to believe that he isn't actually created in God's image, and points out that by choosing to identity with his body of dirt, his new identity will die with that body.

Wow - without a lot more exegesis of the story and support verses this is past the pale, over the top etc etc and needs corroboration and explanation...

It doesn't require all that much to see what I'm talking about. The text states quite clearly that Adam is created in the "image and likeness" of God. We then have Adam's evil inclination, which is personified as "the naXash" suggesting to Adam that he isn't actually like God at all. How does he do this you ask? He says, "you shall be like god..." Genesis 3:5

The same evil inclination that tempted the first Adam does the same to the last Adam in the wilderness. Psychologists, scholars, and theologians alike have noted that the character of Satan is effectively no different than the ego. It is the ego personified.

Do you think that pointing out that Adam will be like the gods suggests that Adam is like God already, or does it suggest that Adam isn't like God? The suggestion is false. It is a given that Adam is created in God's image. The suggestion creates a delusion, a deception in Adam's mind. He see's himself as separate from God when he is the image and likeness of God. This illusion reaches its fulfillment in consuming knowledge which can never mediate reality anywhere as effectively as reality itself. Adam has chosen to mediate reality through his intellect. He creates a separate identity for himself, and all of his descendants do as well. This isn't a stretch, and the fact is that identities are nothing but abstract constructions of the mind. They aren't real, and they die along with the body.

So not only am I not adding much of anything to the story, I'm using the story to spotlight an empirical fact of the world we live in.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 38 by shnarkle]

Mankind was created in the image of God, yet still quite different:

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5)

Mankind was created originally with only two differences between him and God and the angels.

These two differences are body type and knowledge of good and evil.

Man became closer to being like the angels and God when he ate from the tree of Knowledge and recognized good from evil.

The only remaining difference is body type, physical versus spiritual.

Adam & Eve were not expelled from the Garden of Eden because they sinned!

They were expelled so that they could not eat from the Tree of Life and live forever -- thus becoming equal unto God and the angels:

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23)

That which is born of the flesh is flesh (man), and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (angels).

To inherit the Kingdom of God we must be born again (a second birth) of the Spirit as a spirit.

Speaking of those who shall inherit the Kingdom of God in the world to come, Jesus states:

Neither can they die any more, for they are equal unto the angels... (Luke 20:36)

Therefore, one difference presently separates us from the angels -- body type, physical versus spiritual.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 39 by myth-one.com]

They were expelled so that they could not eat from the Tree of Life and live forever -- thus becoming equal unto God and the angels:

Why?

Quote:
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23)

That which is born of the flesh is flesh (man), and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (angels).

To inherit the Kingdom of God we must be born again (a second birth) of the Spirit as a spirit.

Speaking of those who shall inherit the Kingdom of God in the world to come, Jesus states:

Quote:
Neither can they die any more, for they are equal unto the angels... (Luke 20:36)

This doesn't explain why God doesn't want us to be equal, but then points out that we're equal to the angels. Does he or doesn't he want us to be equal to the angels. Paul points out that there will be those who are superior to the angels. They will judge them. Do you have any idea why the tree of life was forbidden?

Therefore, one difference presently separates us from the angels -- body type, physical versus spiritual.

That didn't separate them during the days of Noah, and Christ himself says it will be just as it was in the days of Noah. Not only are they not separated, they join together to produce offspring.