What does it mean,

[Elijah John]

What does it mean, when some people say that "all Scripture is God breathed?

Does it mean that the Bible was dictated by God?

Inspired by God?

Does it mean that the Bible is perfect and infallible in every detail?

If you hold the position that the Bible is "God breathed" please define the term, and support your position.

[Elijah John]

I don't believe that either 2Timothy316, or Jehovah's Witness, answered my question from post 27:

Do you think the keeping and beating of slaves is sin, or not?

Let's have it for the record, what kind of values does the Watchtower Society promote?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 29 by Elijah John]

So let me get this right, the God you worship ALLOWED people to be beaten or killed or raped or whatever and you can acceept and even worship him? But if Jehovah's Witnesses say "God allowed" slavery its atroucous? You believe God allowed slavery but you just don't want us to SAY God allowed slavery?

So what exactly is the difference between our two systems of worship? Your God allowed suffering but didn't write anything down our God allowed exactly the same things but had something written down about what he was allowing? So your claim to moral superiority is that you don't believe God knows how to write?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 29 by Elijah John]

If you want to ignore passages that you don't agree with, that is your prerogative. Yet simply because you don't agree, it is not proof that Exodus is not 'God breathed'. Because you don't agree with the Bible doesn't mean that Moses went out and made his own law without approval from God.

Seems God corrects through a process of Spiritual evolution.

Interesting you'd say this. I'm glad to see you're capable of some discernment. When do you think this process began and how do you know God does this? Is it your opinion? Do you have some way of assuring me what you say is true?

The fact the the Faithful do not promote, nor do they practice slavery is, in effect, a repudiation of that wicked institution.

If I look in the Bible, you're saying that I will find no faithful man that owned another person as a slave....lets have look shall we?

I didn't have to go far into the Bible: Gen 17:27 - "On that very day, Abraham was circumcised and also his son Ishʹma·el. All the men of his household, anyone born in the house and anyone purchased with money from a foreigner, were also circumcised with him."

Abraham bought people. Do you want more names of whom the Bible calls faithful people that owned or bought slaves?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 29 by Elijah John]

If you want to ignore passages that you don't agree with, that is your prerogative. Yet simply because you don't agree, it is not proof that Exodus is not 'God breathed'. Because you don't agree with the Bible doesn't mean that Moses went out and made his own law without approval from God.

Well, it's either pick and choose using the good common sense the Good LORD gave you, or accept the whole thing, hook, line and sinker. If someone decides on the latter, they take the uncomfortable position of having to defend ever single absurd and atrocious passage contained in the Bible.

Also, I am not saying that Moses made his own law, but rather that his primitive bias infected the pure inspiration of Jehovah God, and distorted the message.

Seems God corrects through a process of Spiritual evolution.

Interesting you'd say this. I'm glad to see you're capable of some discernment. When do you think this process began and how do you know God does this? Is it your opinion? Do you have some way of assuring me what you say is true?

Observation. The progression contained in the Bible itself.

The fact the the Faithful do not promote, nor do they practice slavery is, in effect, a repudiation of that wicked institution.

If I look in the Bible, you're saying that I will find no faithful man that owned another person as a slave....lets have look shall we?

I didn't have to go far into the Bible: Gen 17:27 - "On that very day, Abraham was circumcised and also his son Ishʹma·el. All the men of his household, anyone born in the house and anyone purchased with money from a foreigner, were also circumcised with him."

Abraham bought people. Do you want more names of whom the Bible calls faithful people that owned or bought slaves?

By the "Faithful" I meant those who came after the Bible was finalized. Yes, Abraham and other Bible characters are among the Faithful, but they were still primitives. But just because they were primitives, does not mean they didn't get it right sometimes. Abraham with his devotion to the single God YHVH, and Moses with the Ten Commandments, for example.

Since the Bible is flawed, we salvage what we can.

I don't think you ever answered my question from post 27, I think it was. Do you think the keeping and the beating of slaves is sinful?

Yes or no.

Also, why would God find slavery reprehensible in Egypt, but not in Israel?

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 12 by Elijah John]

As I said, there are answers to every what seems like a contraction. The personal question is, are those answers satisfactory to you? Are you a 'must see to believe' type person? If so, then everything you see me belief will seem foolish.

I also know that a person of the flesh will not accept the Bible as truth. They will say things like, 'How can you say that about the Bible?' Also, proceed to tell me what I 'know'. They will also make it seem like the Bible are my words. Jehovah destroying the wicked are not my words. (Psalm 37:10, 11) It's not a threat it's a promise. It's not my promise nor will it be carried out by me. And if you want to know why someone would even say these words then I'd suggest reading the book of Jonah. He told a whole city that they were going to be destroyed for their actions. How did they respond and how do you respond?

If you wish to sanctify God's name why do you attack His Word? Do you realize that you're not making God seem holy but like a buffoon that can't even get a simple book the way He wants it? Have you considered what Jesus meant when he said to Perter, "you think, not God’s thoughts, but those of men.� (Matt 16:23).

The fear of God is the key to understanding. (Proverbs 9:10)

Proverbs 2:5 says, "if you accept my sayings And treasure up my commandments, By making your ear attentive to wisdom And inclining your heart to discernment; Moreover, if you call out for understanding And raise your voice for discernment; If you keep seeking for it as for silver, And you keep searching for it as for hidden treasures; Then you will understand the fear of Jehovah,And you will find the knowledge of God." From those that don't think the Bible is the Word of God, I see no seeking I see only accusations.

Do you know that if you follow the scripture above and 'accept his sayings and treasure His commandments' you will find the knowledge of God? Do you want the knowledge of God? Does your heart stick up it's nose to such a notion as what Proverbs 2:5 says? Do you understand that when you start to pick and choose what you will accept in the Bible, the knowledge of God will never be attainable?

Moderator Comment


This post would be considered to not comply with the guidelines on preaching. Please read through the guidelines and abide by them.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[tam]

Peace to you EJ,

What does it mean, when some people say that "all Scripture is God breathed?

I cannot speak for what others mean when they say it, but scripture is those writings that are inspired (given in spirit or as some say, 'God-breathed'). Someone has written down what has been received in the spirit (from the Spirit).


For example, see the intro to many of the prophets:



Jeremiah 1:2

The Word of YHWH came t him in the thirteenth year of the reign of Josiah..."


Ezekiel 1:3

...the Word of YHWH came to Ezekiel the priest...



These prophets (and others) did not write according to their own reasoning or opinions. They wrote (or scribes wrote what they dictated perhaps) what they received as the Word of God came to them.

Does it mean that the Bible was dictated by God?

No, because scripture and the bible are not necessarily equal. There is scripture IN the Bible, but not everything in the Bible is God-breathed/inspired. This does not make the other books or testimonies untrue; it just means that they were written according to other means. Perhaps as a testimony of things the author witnessed.


According to Christ, Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms are scripture.

“These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.� Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. Luke 24:45



Revelation is also inspired (and so would also be scripture). Because John was in the spirit (Rev 1:10) when he heard and saw the things that he was also told to write down. And of course the intro states that this is the revelation of Christ, that God gave Him (Christ), to show His servants what must soon take place.

Inspired by God?

Yes, given "in spirit".

Does it mean that the Bible is perfect and infallible in every detail?

No.

What is written down is still subject to the erring pen of the scribes (Jeremiah 8:8; Matthew 23:14), and copyist errors and also translation errors.

If you hold the position that the Bible is "God breathed" please define the term, and support your position.

I think I did this above but... those things (direct words; dreams; visions; etc) that are given in the spirit. In the Psalms we also have Christ (the Spirit) speaking through David.





Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Elijah John]

Peace to you EJ,

Does it mean that the Bible is perfect and infallible in every detail?

No.

What is written down is still subject to the erring pen of the scribes (Jeremiah 8:8; Matthew 23:14), and copyist errors and also translation errors.

So, are you saying that the Bible in it's original languages is perfect and infallible?

And that the Bible in it's orginal form, is uncontaminated by human cultural bias?

Including the slave-beating passage, Exodus 21,20-21?

In the Psalms we also have Christ (the Spirit) speaking through David.

Do you suppose that King David would agree, that it was the Spirit of the Messiah speaking through him, and not the Spirit of Yahweh?

Also, if you equate "the Spirit" with "Christ" aren't you conflating the persons of the Trinity?

Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Blessings and peace to you too, Tammy.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 29 by Elijah John]

If you want to ignore passages that you don't agree with, that is your prerogative. Yet simply because you don't agree, it is not proof that Exodus is not 'God breathed'. Because you don't agree with the Bible doesn't mean that Moses went out and made his own law without approval from God.

Well, it's either pick and choose using the good common sense the Good LORD gave you, or accept the whole thing, hook, line and sinker. If someone decides on the latter, they take the uncomfortable position of having to defend ever single absurd and atrocious passage contained in the Bible.

What am I defending? If you look at my posts I have only denied that Jehovah established slavery. The Bible doesn't support this. What I didn't deny is that He allowed it. Stick to what the Bible actually says and not what we think it says and everything can be explained with just a little discernment. Yet even you said that allowing bad things to happen is God's way of allowing humans to evolve from their bad ways, right? The laws on slavery didn't abolish it but it did but it did put rules on it. The Word of God the Bible, that it is God Breathed, is what I'm defending and if a person is defending that means there is an attack. In my view you're the attacker on my God's Word. Yet you think that the Bible is aggressor over something that God did shape His people into quitting. Did you ever stop to think that He started with those laws on slavery all those thousands of years ago to get His people to evolve out of using slavery? Ever stop to think that He allows some things to happen so that we can see how completely horrible and unsustainable they are?

Your defense of "Seems God corrects through a process of Spiritual evolution." you added, "The progression contained in the Bible itself."

And you know what? You're right! You don't have to criminalize passages of the Bible to come to this conclusion. Remember, the challenge in Eden was that mankind doesn't need God and they can direct their own paths. Jehovah is letting that play out because there is only one way to prove that. And yes that even means allowing slavery so that we can see God's ways truly are the best ways. If it wasn't allowed then that question would never really be answered and someone would sure to bring it up. 'How do you know it is bad to have slaves even under God's rule, He never allowed it.' Ah but He did and was it good? Nope.

[2timothy316]

By the "Faithful" I meant those who came after the Bible was finalized. Yes, Abraham and other Bible characters are among the Faithful, but they were still primitives. But just because they were primitives, does not mean they didn't get it right sometimes. Abraham with his devotion to the single God YHVH, and Moses with the Ten Commandments, for example.

Since the Bible is flawed, we salvage what we can.

Interesting. What you described as flawed is not the Bible but people. This is exactly right. Yet that doesn't make the Bible wrong because humans are flawed. If God can't make a book that is "beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness." then He is not the Almighty God. He Himself is flawed and Jesus lied in Matthew 19:26 when he said, "with God all things are possible". Yes, even a book perfect so a man of God to be "completely equipped for every good work." The Bible the only source for every good work, even if it was flawed men who wrote it. Where is your faith?

[2timothy316]

I don't think you ever answered my question from post 27, I think it was. Do you think the keeping and the beating of slaves is sinful?

Yes or no.

According to the Bible in ancient days, if it was sinful, then there was no punishment. Again, it doesn't matter what I think is sinful or not. My opinion in the matter is irrelevant. The law was written and allowed. I do not deny scripture to be true or God breathed based on my opinions. To answer the question, yes, it seems that slavery was sinful. Polygamy is a sin and it was allowed too. But as someone once said of polygamy, "It's like a smelly and ugly couch, though it is not ideal it still serves a purpose as something to sit on". Israel needed a bunch of people fast and historically women have always outnumbered men. So that ugly couch was the solution. Just because Jehovah allows and doesn't punish sinful things doesn't mean the Bible is flawed. Faithful people of God need to be able to keep in mind the big picture. The Bible was not written to testify that humans have right to rule as sovereign. It's there to show they are not. "it does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.� (Jeremiah 10:23)

Also, why would God find slavery reprehensible in Egypt, but not in Israel?

Who says He didn't? "Remember that you became a slave in the land of Egypt and that Jehovah your God redeemed you." Deut 15:15. Jehovah kept reminding them of their past but they didn't always listen or care. Their lack of caring doesn't make the Bible flawed or even that Jehovah liked slavery.