Does America have a rape culture?

[FinalEnigma]

I ended up in this discussion on facebook, and it got pretty absurd at times, and I was hoping to find a bit more rational of a discussion on the topic here.

So, here are my working definitions.

Rape: For the purpose of this debate, I am defining rape as
Any instance of a sexual act where there is a disparity in(the binary state of) consent. That is, when one of the involved individuals either explicitly or implicitly refuses or revokes consent (such as saying 'no', physically resisting, etc.), is incapable of giving informed consent, including both long term and short term states (such as being underage or mentally deficient, or being drunk beyond sensibility without a pre-existing agreement that sex in this state was consented to), or is not given the opportunity to consent (such as through the use of date-rape drugs).

Rape Culture: For the purpose of this debate, I am defining rape culture as a culture which meets one of the following conditions:
1)A culture in which the mainstream view is that rape is morally acceptable, that women who have been raped have provoked their attacker, that commission of rape should not be punished, or that rape is a natural and normal thing that men do.

2) A culture in which rape is routinely used as punishment, is a standard rite of passage, or is used as a means of control.


For debate:

does the United States of America have a rape culture?

[Zzyzx]

.

So, I don't know why you needed to ask unless your thinking about raping more since you did not state your position.

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[Hamsaka]

I don't have an opinion about the US having a 'rape culture'. There are ongoing social issues around the status of women and other historically 'minority' groups. I did some reading about 'rape culture', as it was defined in the late 1970's by second-wave feminist theoreticians. Some of their 'stuff' is too extremist for me to give it much credit . . . but the spirit of feminism (and all social movements against discrimination) has brought the quality of life for women and groups traditionally discriminated against, up. I'm a female who isn't 'sensitive' to the lingering sexism, maybe I've just been fortunate. I don't see myself as having innate qualities that diminish my social value, so I could be overlooking a lot, so at least I'm aware of it.

It's more like 'rape culture' could be seen on the small scale, as individuals will vary quite a bit within a culture where women are more or less equal in status with men. You might see hints of it, or flagrant examples, but it is not a cultural phenomenon as it is in Syria, for instance.

It's ironic to me when male members (no pun intended) bring up issues having to do with deeply 'female' issues (I include abortion rights in this mix). I both deeply appreciate it and instinctively recoil at the same time . I guess it's because I wonder what men think is their business, especially in defining experiences that they do not have.

I like your presentation in this post in general, and am a little disappointed that I cannot agree with your implication.

I do not believe that rape or rape culture are female issues; I believe that they are societal, cultural, and human issues.

As you noted, men are raped as well, and i will add that it is in much higher numbers than most would think.

But I have a couple points I would like to bring up. I would claim that when a woman(or man) is raped in our country or our cities, it dismisses all of us. Obviously, I don't mean to diminish or dismiss the victim - that goes without saying. My point is that when rape is so common in prisons that we almost consider it the default, that is an indightment of our country as a whole.

You made no such statements, but I would also like to say that the stance of some feminism that men should not talk about or bring up or be heard on "women's rights" issues subjects such as rape is absurd and counterproductive.
Sure, the vast majority of rapists are men, but the vast majority of men are not rapists. Doesn't it seem obvious to get at least these men who are not rapists involved in the discussion of how to combat rape?

I wasn't aware it was a 'feminist stance' that men should not talk about or bring up women's rights issues. I was talking about my own mixed feelings, ones I came to on my own (not a reader of feminist literature) from my own experiences. I would never claim it is wrong for a man to bring up the subject, either.

What I find especially ironic is when a man or men bring this subject up in order to criticize it in some way or another.

I could even make the argument that rape is a men's issue even more than a women's issue simply because rapists are overwhelmingly men; Rape is a thing that men do, and both sexes suffer. wouldnt men logically have a greater insight into what conditions drive men to rape and what we as a society can do to best curtail it's occurrence?

Rape is definitely an issue for all genders/sexual orientations. It was feminists that began to develop the more modern ideas around it. It's a fact that more women are raped then men, it is in particular a women's issue but easily includes the plight of any person who is at the mercy of a much stronger person.

I don't believe it is logical to say the persons who commit rape have a greater understanding, or even an understanding worth bringing into the light of day.

Not because of them being (primarily) male. It has nothing to do with the sex of the perpetrator, and everything to do with their pathological frame of mind. Both sexes (though a slight preponderance toward the male sex) are subject to psychopathology.

That said YES, I do agree that the 'male perspective' is and can be very valuable, not just for the men who experience rape but as the same sex as those who do most of the raping. Valuable insights and questions come from the 'male side' of this issue.

I would also point out that the mantra "don't teach women to avoid rape: teach men not to rape" is naïve at best. Rape is a horrible thing, but it is a thing that exists within our society and it is pure idealistic denialism to pretend that it is not statistical fact that there are behaviors which women can take which modulate their chances of being raped.

That is NOT to say that it the victims fault. I say again, it IS NOT the victims fault.

I hear you that you yourself do not blame the victim. But 'blaming the victim' is a logical outcome of rape being something that exists and 'teaching men not to rape is naive at best'. Hopefully you'll go into that idea a little more so I can understand enough to respond and alas, my dinner arrived so I'll get back to the rest of my response in the next bit.

[FinalEnigma]

I don't have an opinion about the US having a 'rape culture'. There are ongoing social issues around the status of women and other historically 'minority' groups. I did some reading about 'rape culture', as it was defined in the late 1970's by second-wave feminist theoreticians. Some of their 'stuff' is too extremist for me to give it much credit . . . but the spirit of feminism (and all social movements against discrimination) has brought the quality of life for women and groups traditionally discriminated against, up. I'm a female who isn't 'sensitive' to the lingering sexism, maybe I've just been fortunate. I don't see myself as having innate qualities that diminish my social value, so I could be overlooking a lot, so at least I'm aware of it.

It's more like 'rape culture' could be seen on the small scale, as individuals will vary quite a bit within a culture where women are more or less equal in status with men. You might see hints of it, or flagrant examples, but it is not a cultural phenomenon as it is in Syria, for instance.

It's ironic to me when male members (no pun intended) bring up issues having to do with deeply 'female' issues (I include abortion rights in this mix). I both deeply appreciate it and instinctively recoil at the same time . I guess it's because I wonder what men think is their business, especially in defining experiences that they do not have.

I like your presentation in this post in general, and am a little disappointed that I cannot agree with your implication.

I do not believe that rape or rape culture are female issues; I believe that they are societal, cultural, and human issues.

As you noted, men are raped as well, and i will add that it is in much higher numbers than most would think.

But I have a couple points I would like to bring up. I would claim that when a woman(or man) is raped in our country or our cities, it dismisses all of us. Obviously, I don't mean to diminish or dismiss the victim - that goes without saying. My point is that when rape is so common in prisons that we almost consider it the default, that is an indightment of our country as a whole.

You made no such statements, but I would also like to say that the stance of some feminism that men should not talk about or bring up or be heard on "women's rights" issues subjects such as rape is absurd and counterproductive.
Sure, the vast majority of rapists are men, but the vast majority of men are not rapists. Doesn't it seem obvious to get at least these men who are not rapists involved in the discussion of how to combat rape?

I wasn't aware it was a 'feminist stance' that men should not talk about or bring up women's rights issues. I was talking about my own mixed feelings, ones I came to on my own (not a reader of feminist literature) from my own experiences. I would never claim it is wrong for a man to bring up the subject, either.

My apologies if I expressed myself poorly. I was not intending to make any accusations toward you. But it does sound as if I am more acquainted with the more extreme feminists.

I could even make the argument that rape is a men's issue even more than a women's issue simply because rapists are overwhelmingly men; Rape is a thing that men do, and both sexes suffer. wouldnt men logically have a greater insight into what conditions drive men to rape and what we as a society can do to best curtail it's occurrence?

Rape is definitely an issue for all genders/sexual orientations. It was feminists that began to develop the more modern ideas around it. It's a fact that more women are raped then men, it is in particular a women's issue but easily includes the plight of any person who is at the mercy of a much stronger person.

yes, I pretty much agree with you, here. I was just saying that one could actually make an argument of it without being totally absurd.

I don't believe it is logical to say the persons who commit rape have a greater understanding, or even an understanding worth bringing into the light of day.

Well, that wasn't my argument. my argument was that men in general might have a better understanding of the forces acting on a man's decisions making when choosing whether or not to rape someone.
I was referring primarily to the kind of rape that is done by college kids at frat parties, the likewise despicable, but less violent and less pathological kind of rape.
I have no doubt that there are at times social and other pressures by other males to take advantage of women in vulnerable situations such as drunk at frat parties, and that men who have been in this position might be able to give insight as to why one would actually do it, and what we could do to help prevent this.

I would also point out that the mantra "don't teach women to avoid rape: teach men not to rape" is naïve at best. Rape is a horrible thing, but it is a thing that exists within our society and it is pure idealistic denialism to pretend that it is not statistical fact that there are behaviors which women can take which modulate their chances of being raped.

That is NOT to say that it the victims fault. I say again, it IS NOT the victims fault.

I hear you that you yourself do not blame the victim. But 'blaming the victim' is a logical outcome of rape being something that exists and 'teaching men not to rape is naive at best'. Hopefully you'll go into that idea a little more so I can understand enough to respond and alas, my dinner arrived so I'll get back to the rest of my response in the next bit.

Well, I disagree that it's the logical outcome.

My point here is basically this:

Both sexes (though a slight preponderance toward the male sex) are subject to psychopathology.

OF COURSE we should teach men not to rape. To me, that is a given.
The point I am trying to express here is that there are 318 million people in America. We can teach men not to rape all day long, but with 318 million people, there's going to be rapists out there. We cannot prevent that entirely.

There will always be people out there who will commit rape, so, while we are out there doing everything we can to teach people not to, shouldn't we also teach people how to protect themselves from the rapists we CAN'T educate out of it?

[help3434]

I guess we both know the Bible is BS and God does not exist since there is zero proof.

I don't have to prove my opinion. You may disagree with my opinion but you also have zero proof that I am wrong in my opinion.

It is not an opinion in the same sense as, say, the opinion that strawberry ice-cream is better than vanilla. Either the idea that God is not against rape plays a significant role in the cases of sexual abuse committed by clergy, or it does not. You have no evidence that it does.

You fail to address the major issue that the bible is full rape that the bible god approves. And in some cases goes further. For example according to the bible God raped Mary and then told her he did. There was no discussion with her and her husband if God could have sex with her. RAPE.

Did you read all of http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm ?

The Bible does not say that God had sex with Mary. Neither does your link.

[Donray]

I guess we both know the Bible is BS and God does not exist since there is zero proof.

I don't have to prove my opinion. You may disagree with my opinion but you also have zero proof that I am wrong in my opinion.

It is not an opinion in the same sense as, say, the opinion that strawberry ice-cream is better than vanilla. Either the idea that God is not against rape plays a significant role in the cases of sexual abuse committed by clergy, or it does not. You have no evidence that it does.

You fail to address the major issue that the bible is full rape that the bible god approves. And in some cases goes further. For example according to the bible God raped Mary and then told her he did. There was no discussion with her and her husband if God could have sex with her. RAPE.

Did you read all of http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm ?

The Bible does not say that God had sex with Mary. Neither does your link.

Tell us how Mary got pregnant. God did something to make her pregnant. That is called sex. God had sex with Mary. Why don't like that?

There is rape all over the bible.

Why don't you respond to each item at http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm.

It spell out all the rape in the bible.

Why not start with the first example and explain how you think no rape happened.

Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)



So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.



The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."



Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.



Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick bastards killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil?

[Paprika]

No, but I suppose you prefer the *modern moral fad* of mate selection for your own sons and daughters.

I think there's a lot to be said for arranged marriages, and have in fact debated one of my friends on the topic.

Will you next claim to stand by while your fourteen year old daughter is jailed or publicly shamed and executed for flirting with a cute boy? While holding your bucket of saved embryos?

How emotive you seem. Executed for flirting? How much more dramatic can you get?

Oh, and I note the butthurt over the abortion thread still persists. Get something for that burn man.

[FinalEnigma]

No, but I suppose you prefer the *modern moral fad* of mate selection for your own sons and daughters.

I think there's a lot to be said for arranged marriages, and have in fact debated one of my friends on the topic.

This could be an interesting debate/discussion. Would you care to discuss this in another thread?


Donray:

Tell us how Mary got pregnant. God did something to make her pregnant. That is called sex. God had sex with Mary. Why don't like that?

If we are assuming that God exists enough to impregnate Mary, then why are you assuming that an entity which is capable of creating the universe is incapable of impregnating a woman without sex?

[Donray]

If we are assuming that God exists enough to impregnate Mary, then why are you assuming that an entity which is capable of creating the universe is incapable of impregnating a woman without sex?

What do you call a woman made pregnant without her consent?

[FinalEnigma]

If we are assuming that God exists enough to impregnate Mary, then why are you assuming that an entity which is capable of creating the universe is incapable of impregnating a woman without sex?

What do you call a woman made pregnant without her consent?

Well, I'm not sure. Lots of women get pregnant without consent; condoms break. stuff happens.
Presumably you want to call them a rape victim. But magical sexless pregnancy is not rape.

[Donray]

If we are assuming that God exists enough to impregnate Mary, then why are you assuming that an entity which is capable of creating the universe is incapable of impregnating a woman without sex?

What do you call a woman made pregnant without her consent?

Well, I'm not sure. Lots of women get pregnant without consent; condoms break. stuff happens.
Presumably you want to call them a rape victim. But magical sexless pregnancy is not rape.

So, you would believe a woman that said god got her pregnant?

Actually getting someone pregnant without consent is rape. What else would it be?