Illegal Immigration

[WinePusher]

It seems like illegal immigration is going to be the main issue for the 2016 election cycle. First we have Donald Trump saying that Mexican immigrants are mainly rapists and criminals, and then we have a young woman from San Francisco being killed by an illegal immigrant.

Questions:

1) Does it make sense to get rid of sanctuary cities given the death of Kate Steinle?

2) What is the truth regarding illegal Mexican immigrants and crime rates?

3) As a compassionate and largely Christian nation that was created by colonialists, and immigrants afterwards, what should our laws be regarding illegal immigration.

[enviousintheeverafter]

Why do feel the need to lie about the crime rate going down 48%?

Why do you need to characterize an inconvenient fact as a "lie"? Your position is that hard up? Or do you simply not know what the word "lie" means? Either seems equally likely at this point.

But again, as per the Immigration report- between 1990 and 2013, a period in which the population of illegal immigrants tripled, the rate of violent crime decreased 48% while the rate of property crime decreased 41%. This is a fact. You can look at the FBI's stats yourself- while I couldn't find the report for 1990, the violent crime rate in 1994 was 713.6 per 100k (https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/c ... 95sec2.pdf), while the violent crime rate in 2013 was 367.9 per 100k (https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/c ... main_final), about a 48% decrease. And as we also can see from my earlier post, foreign-borns are incarcerated at a fraction of the rate of native-borns. So, that illegal immigrants are more likely to commit crimes than anyone else simply is not factual- a xenophobic delusion.

[Donray]

Why do feel the need to lie about the crime rate going down 48%?

Why do you need to characterize an inconvenient fact as a "lie"? Your position is that hard up? Or do you simply not know what the word "lie" means? Either seems equally likely at this point.

But again, as per the Immigration report- between 1990 and 2013, a period in which the population of illegal immigrants tripled, the rate of violent crime decreased 48% while the rate of property crime decreased 41%. This is a fact. You can look at the FBI's stats yourself- while I couldn't find the report for 1990, the violent crime rate in 1994 was 713.6 per 100k (https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/c ... 95sec2.pdf), while the violent crime rate in 2013 was 367.9 per 100k (https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/c ... main_final), about a 48% decrease. And as we also can see from my earlier post, foreign-borns are incarcerated at a fraction of the rate of native-borns. So, that illegal immigrants are more likely to commit crimes than anyone else simply is not factual- a xenophobic delusion.

Yes, I know what a lie is. You are either lying or you cannot read. The link is a pdf that states 5,373.5 per thousand not 713.6.

From your second reference:
â—¾When considering 5- and 10-year trends, the 2013 estimated violent crime total was 12.3 percent below the 2009 level and 14.5 percent below the 2004 level. (See Tables 1 and 1A.)

Where do you get 48%? And I also s=asked how do know that crime illegals did not increase during that timeframe?

You are either directly lying or trying to bend the truth to fit your bigotry.

[dianaiad]

.....

You are either directly lying or trying to bend the truth to fit your bigotry.

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[FinalEnigma]

Why do feel the need to lie about the crime rate going down 48%?

Why do you need to characterize an inconvenient fact as a "lie"? Your position is that hard up? Or do you simply not know what the word "lie" means? Either seems equally likely at this point.

But again, as per the Immigration report- between 1990 and 2013, a period in which the population of illegal immigrants tripled, the rate of violent crime decreased 48% while the rate of property crime decreased 41%. This is a fact. You can look at the FBI's stats yourself- while I couldn't find the report for 1990, the violent crime rate in 1994 was 713.6 per 100k (https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/c ... 95sec2.pdf), while the violent crime rate in 2013 was 367.9 per 100k (https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/c ... main_final), about a 48% decrease. And as we also can see from my earlier post, foreign-borns are incarcerated at a fraction of the rate of native-borns. So, that illegal immigrants are more likely to commit crimes than anyone else simply is not factual- a xenophobic delusion.

Yes, I know what a lie is. You are either lying or you cannot read. The link is a pdf that states 5,373.5 per thousand not 713.6.

According to the PDF, 5,373.5 per 100k is the OVERALL crime rate 713.6 per 100k is the VIOLENT crime rate.

the second report, which is explicitly on VIOLENT crime, says "367.9 violent crimes per 100,000 inhabitants in 2013"

According to the calculator on my computer, that is a 48.4% decrease.

[enviousintheeverafter]

Yes, I know what a lie is. You are either lying or you cannot read. The link is a pdf that states 5,373.5 per thousand not 713.6.

Ironic that you've accused me of not being able to read when that's clearly what you've failed at here (oops). The 5373.5 figure (from page 1) is the total crime rate, not the violent crime rate*. As per page 6 of the FBI report, the violent crime rate was 713.6-

"Violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. All violent crimes involve force or threat of force.

TREND
Rate per 100,000

1994 . . . 713.6"

*I see that I've been ninja'd by FinalEnigma

Where do you get 48%?

A drop from 713 to 368 is about a 48% decrease.

And I also s=asked how do know that crime illegals did not increase during that timeframe?

Because its not plausible to suppose that the total population of illegals would triple, and somehow the violent crime rate would drop by half if illegals were committing more crime. If illegals commit more crime, and the population has tripled, we would expect the crime rates to increase accordingly. And when we look at the actual incarceration rates, this is confirmed, and the xenophobic delusion is exposed. Sorry, Mr. Trump, your opinion is invalid.

You are either directly lying or trying to bend the truth to fit your bigotry.

Lol, so either you're confused about who's arguing what, or you also don't know what "bigotry" means. You're the one arguing- contrary to the facts- that illegal immigrants are all criminals.

[micatala]

[Replying to Donray]

I am pointing out that illegals murder people at a much lower rate than happens in the population overall.

I suppose you could infer that if we deported all illegals, thereby reducing the U.S. population by 12 million or so, you might reduce the total number of murders, say by 3000. However, the result would be that the murder rate (measured in a typical way like murders per 100,000) would go up.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 27 by Donray]

It was a report referenced by the Deparment of Public Safety.

I also attached multiple caveats to clarify the lack of specificity within the report. Making it hard to draw any solid conclusions.

[Danmark]

Why do the people that want amnesty lie about deportation breaking up families?

I haven't looked at the laws, but this fits into the progressives/liberals' MOs: eg. think of the children! let them through the borders! where is your humanity! - in short, to induce the feels to short-circuit reason.

This is as ridiculous as Donray's absurd:

If all illegals where [sic] departed we could have saved 3000 plus lives.
So, people are right when they say illegals murder. Does it matter how many illegals kill?

A. You confess you haven't looked at the laws.
B. You make an enormous logical error [as well as a hard to follow confused political statement] about some ill defined political philosophy of the 'infamous,' but undefined 'liberal.'
C. You offer no facts about your claim of "saving 3000 plus lives."

Politifact called Perry's similar statement, "This statement is both incorrect and ridiculous. Pants on Fire!"
http://www.politifact.com/texas/stateme ... egal-immi/

It is common knowledge that the reason the United States imports so many illegal immigrants is due to U.S. corporations, particularly in the agricultural industry, that wants cheap labor. It is absurdly, ludicrously, and unfairly inaccurate and unfair to blame this on "liberals" when it is conservative corporations and businessmen who insist on cheap immigrant labor while publicly cry about illegal immigration.

[Danmark]

Unfortunately, RE illegal immigration and crime, public perception and the prevailing wisdom have virtually nothing to do with the reality of the situation, and BS artists like Trump are all too happy to stoke the fire of irrationality and prejudice.

Demagoguery (Obama, Trump, Bernie Sanders) is a natural outcome in the democratic cycle.

In addition to being unsupported, Trump is a Republican. This post is factually incorrect and contains no support for its one line claim.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 37 by Danmark]

It is common knowledge that the reason the United States imports so many illegal immigrants is due to U.S. corporations, particularly in the agricultural industry, that wants cheap labor. It is absurdly, ludicrously, and unfairly inaccurate and unfair to blame this on "liberals" when it is conservative corporations and businessmen who insist on cheap immigrant labor while publicly cry about illegal immigration.

To rebuff this a few years ago there was another movement to deport illegals in Alabama. I am surprised no one really remembers this. It failed because it gutted the agricultural industry. It passed HB 56(the toughest immigration law in the country) in 2011 and witnessed a huge exodus of immigrants. The original draw from these immigrants was poultry farming. During this boom Alabama went from an estimated 25,000 illegal immigrants to 126,000. HB 56 initially created a huge exodus of immigrants. However, this had a hugely negative impact on the farming community. It didn't take long for provision after provision to get removed. HB 56 became a shell as it was gutted over the years.


Just take note the toughest immigration bill ever passed in a deep red state failed. Not because of liberals or republicans. It failed because these ideas are simply not feasible.

So when I say immigration is a lose lose for republicans to focus on I mean it. Just look at HB 56 even republicans really don't like these bills in practice.