What I learned from a 1937 World Atlas

[DeBunkem]

Saw an actual tamper-proof printed US World Gazette from 1937 at a friend's house this weekend. Nobody had an agenda when the map was published beyond showing the geographic facts. While "Israel Firsters" celebrate their depth of ignorance on geography and land ownership, I'll just briefly describe what I saw. The general borders of PALESTINE were as they are shown today in the maps of the Occupied Zones and the Arab Ghettos and bantustans. However, it included lands on the E. side of Jordan. First, it blasted the Zionist myth of "a Land without People for a People without Land." Arab towns and villages cover PALESTINE from border to border. "Israel" is nowhere mentioned, and did not exist. Even the ones with Jewish names had Arab names in parenthesis, but these were few. "British Protectorate" was printed across the map. A brief note in the index indicated a very high Arab population, with a much lower number of Jews, but added that "Jewish colonies are growing." We expect this to be true because of the flight of Jews from Europe and Russia. Jerusalem was divided into FOUR sections: Jewish, Moslem, Christian, and "Armenian" (Orthodox). Some other ancient names such as Edom and Ammon were mentioned.
That was PALESTINE in 1937. I can easily get the publisher info for anyone who thinks the geographical facts are made up.

"Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend
in the Middle East, I can't help but think that before
Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East." : John
Sheehan, S.J. (a Jesuit priest)

Meanwhile:

Legitimization of land theft

The theft of private land and lawless construction, with the authorities' collaboration, have long been routine in the land of the settlers.

Haaretz Editorial http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/op ... t-1.214201

The theft of private land and lawless construction, with the authorities' collaboration, have long been routine in the land of the settlers. The scope of these deeds and their seriousness are described extensively in the report on illegal outposts compiled by Talia Sasson, formerly a senior state prosecution attorney. The report was buried almost two years ago.

However, the decision of the Supreme Planning Council (SPC) for Judea and Samaria, which was revealed in Haaretz on Sunday, to legitimize the plan to build the Matityahu East neighborhood in Modi'in Ilit, beyond the Green Line, marks a nadir.

The plan is to legitimize 42 high-rises, which are in various stages of construction, some of them on land allegedly stolen from the villagers of Bil'in. All of the high-rises being built contravene the planning and construction laws. Peace Now and Bil'in's residents petitioned the High Court of Justice two years ago to have construction stopped. The legal counsel of Modi'in Ilit warned in writing of "construction offenses of such colossal proportions, ignoring the law and planning regulations, that words cannot describe [them]."

Following the petition, with the support of the State Prosecution, the High Court ordered a halt to construction and to the neighborhood's occupancy more than a year ago. At that time the prosecution instructed the police to open an investigation into those involved in the affair.

The authorities responsible for enforcing the region's planning and building laws knew what was going on and turned a blind eye. Instead, they recently decided to legitimize it retroactively.

Matityahu East is the latest in a series of such affairs in which the separation barrier, supposedly serving Israel's security needs, is used to annex West Bank territory to expand the settlements. The defense minister is dragging his feet on everything concerning the evacuation of illegal outposts. At the same time, bodies he is responsible for - led by the civil administration - are colluding in land grabbing and legitimizing illegal construction throughout the West Bank....More...

The Israeli press has more freedom to speak the truth about land theft than the AIPAC-controlled US media, it would seem.

[cnorman18]

One is rendered breathless by the sheer volume of one-sided and unsupported Zionist disinfo you present. It is a often-used propaganda tactic to turn the great snow machine on and demand answers to every flake.

A strenuous attempt, but clumsy and transparent. Let’s analyze it, line by line.

One is rendered breathless by the sheer volume…

There’s a propaganda tactic, if you like; using the phrase "sheer volume" to refer to arguments that I have condensed into a single paragraph.

…of one-sided and unsupported Zionist disinfo you present…

Along with the claim of AIPAC control of the US media that you now refuse to acknowledge that you ever made, we now have a claim that the material I present is “unsupported disinfo.� Please prove that claim or retract it.

It is a often-used propaganda tactic to turn the great snow machine on and demand answers to every flake.

Nice try, but that’s an unsupported pejorative label and an obvious strawman. “Every flake�? You have yet to even ACKNOWLEDGE a SINGLE ONE of these arguments and facts. And, once again, I have condensed them -- over and over and over and OVER -- into a single paragraph.

This whole paragraph is a transparent effort to keep ducking and dodging and diverting attention from a whole list of arguments and facts to which you apparently have no response or answer at all. You can’t even bring yourself to acknowledge that they exist. You’re pretending I’m burying you in tons of material, when there is, in fact, only one paragraph of arguments that you can’t even admit have ever been presented.

Just as Noahm Chomsky (Jewish anti-imperialist) said:

….
[music break]
….

Take your time. Few have been able to dispute Noahm factually.

Remarkably long quote from one who complains about the "sheer volume" of mine.

I wouldn’t dream of disputing Chomsky’s facts. He has long been living proof that a Jew can be a one-sided anti-Israel propagandist as well as any Arab, and he is a very skilled one indeed. I rarely dispute the facts that YOU present -- when they are facts, of course, as opposed to your claims, opinions, and quotes.

The problem I have with Chomsky is the same problem I have with you: it’s with the pertinent facts he refuses to acknowledge, let alone explain or deal with in anything approaching an intellectually honest or evenhanded manner. If you’re going to indulge yourself in the “appeal to authority� logical fallacy, at least pick an “authority� who has some credibility on the issue and isn't affiliated with Holocaust deniers.

I can address the following oft-repeated list -- and, oh, my, what a snowstorm it is! -- of arguments to Chomsky as readily as I can address it (yet again) to you; the list of arguments and FACTS that you STILL refuse to even acknowledge, let alone answer.

I’ve added a couple that are pertinent to the lengthy quote above. See if you can spot them, everyone:

Again, no acknowledgment of the decades-long campaign of Palestinian attacks against unarmed civilians chosen as primary targets for mass murder; no acknowledgment of the responsibility of the Palestinian terrorists for the deaths of Palestinian civilians due to their own inarguably criminal tactics; no acknowledgment of the openly and explicitly stated, and never renounced, Palestinian goal of the total eradication of Israel and the extermination or expulsion of every Jew in the Mideast; no acknowledgment of the decades of Government-sponsored and encouraged old-school Nazi-style anti-Semitic hate propaganda to which the Arab public is subjected; no acknowledgment of Holocaust denial, claims of worldwide Jewish conspiracy promoting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as authentic, and even dramatizations of the notorious Blood Libel as factually true in Arab media; no acknowledgment of the Palestinian goal of “ethnic cleansing� in order to establish a Judenrein Arab nation in the West Bank, and eventually from the Jordan to the sea; no acknowledgment of the FACT that Arab commanders and leaders ordered Arabs to leave Israel during the War of Independence; no acknowledgment that many Arabs never left Israel, and live there in peace and freedom as full citizens to this day; no acknowledgment of endlessly repeated Israeli offers of “land for peace�; no acknowledgment of the blatant anti-Israel bias of the UN; and, finally, no acknowledgment of the FACT that looking to mutually exclusive historical narratives of the past offers no solutions, only more endless conflict. In short, no acknowledgment of anything but the unquestioning embrace of pure Palestinian propaganda, often including fake and fabricated quotes clearly intended to inflame and promote hatred and resentment.

When you're ready to actually acknowledge and talk about some of the FACTS above, and therefore to actually engage in meaningful debate as opposed to peddling one-sided propaganda, let me know.

Is there some reason you think you’re going to avoid seeing this every time you post on the subject of Israel? Is there some reason you think that no one notices that you refuse to admit the existence of these facts and arguments, and that you apparently have nothing to offer but distractions, red herrings and changes of subject to divert attention from them?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 27:

DeBunkem, I 'preciate some good "picking on" just as much as anyone, but I think you're stepping over the line a bit. I would ask that you just present your argument without the veiled or overt insults directed towards me. If I've stepped out of line I 'pologize myself and will do my best to not insult you.

The title and publisher info have been requested and expected in my e-mail very soon, o mighty Hector of the Forum.

Who's Hector? You wouldn't be calling me names would ya?

YOU have the responsibility to take it down with a "pencil," go to your local "library" and find the "book."

Iay illway otnay oday ouryay orkway orfay ouyay.

That's the only other way I can say I will not do your work for you.

YOU claim this map exists, it is YOUR responsibility to produce it. Of course I agree a map may exist that doesn't show Israel on it. My point is that you seem to hold such great store in this "tamperproof" map. It is my intention to "tamper" with this map just as soon as you present it so I can conclusively show this map is not "tamperproof", and that your argument based on that notion is in error.

You can find the definitions to these words on a Net Dictionary.

I 'preciate that, smarm and all.

Books cannot be jammed through my screen into the cyber-world even if mighty Hector demand it.

Who's Hector?

I will not take the blame for your inability to support your assertions.

Here is a picture of a "Book" and some of the wonderful facts you can discover if you know the secret of operating one...Your challenge has been thrown back in your face. Good Luck

I propose if you wish to continue insulting me to just go on and say something bad about my momma.

[fewwillfindit]

Who's Hector?

Hmmm...could it be:

Hector - a great character in Greek mythology, fearless fighter in the Trojan War, hero of Troy.?

or perhaps:

H.E.C.T.O.R. (Highly Evolved Creature Totally Oriented on Revenge)?

In any case, he would be well advised to stop short of saying that Hector's momma wears combat boots.

Just sayin'

I propose if you wish to continue insulting me to just go on and say something bad about my momma.

[cnorman18]

Who's Hector?

Or possibly this, from The Free Online Dictionary:

hec·tor
n.
A bully.
v. hec·tored, hec·tor·ing, hec·tors
v.tr.
To intimidate or dominate in a blustering way.
v.intr.
To behave like a bully; swagger.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 33 & Post 34:

Who's Hector?

Hector - a great character in Greek mythology, fearless fighter in the Trojan War, hero of Troy.?

Hmm. Considering I can't fight my way out of a paper bag, and it sopping wet, I don't think that'n fits.

H.E.C.T.O.R. (Highly Evolved Creature Totally Oriented on Revenge)?

Considering the old lady calls me a neanderthal, I don't think thatn's it either.

In any case, he would be well advised to stop short of saying that Hector's momma wears combat boots.

LOL. It'd be close though

Or possibly this, from The Free Online Dictionary:

Ah. Given the context of the post in which the term is used, I think we may have a winner.

That is kinda funny though, given the insults that were directed my way.

[cnorman18]

From Post 33 & Post 34:

Who's Hector?

Hector - a great character in Greek mythology, fearless fighter in the Trojan War, hero of Troy.?

Hmm. Considering I can't fight my way out of a paper bag, and it sopping wet, I don't think that'n fits.

H.E.C.T.O.R. (Highly Evolved Creature Totally Oriented on Revenge)?

Considering the old lady calls me a neanderthal, I don't think thatn's it either.

In any case, he would be well advised to stop short of saying that Hector's momma wears combat boots.

LOL. It'd be close though

Or possibly this, from The Free Online Dictionary:

Ah. Given the context of the post in which the term is used, I think we may have a winner.

That is kinda funny though, given the insults that were directed my way.

To be fair; I suspect the first proposed meaning is the correct one, and that the intent was to post a sarcastic comment directed toward one whom the member regards as thinking of himself as a mighty warrior in debate. I don't consider it particularly civil, but I also don't think it rises to the level of being worthy of moderator comment. It was a more or less minor jab, and we are all guilty of those.

[JoeyKnothead]

To be fair; I suspect the first proposed meaning is the correct one, and that the intent was to post a sarcastic comment directed toward one whom the member regards as thinking of himself as a mighty warrior in debate. I don't consider it particularly civil, but I also don't think it rises to the level of being worthy of moderator comment. It was a more or less minor jab, and we are all guilty of those.

I'm cool with that. It's one reason I didn't feel the need to report the post or respond in kind.

On thinking I'm some "mighty warrior" regarding debate, I personally consider myself far inferior compared to some others.

[DeBunkem]

Collier's World Atlas and Gazetteer, copyright 1937, P. F. & Son Corporation

You should know that to find "PALESTINE" that you use the alphabetical method. Just turn the pages....very user friendly. Oh, and if you care to look in the spot where "Israel" should be, you will find NOTHING. Since real books cannot be hacked or photoshopped, I hope you see the advantage of doing the work yourself instead of another dodge tactic such as "scan it and send it." Either you or someone else on the Zionist tag team would then doubtless claim it has been meddled with, further wasting my time. Go for it!

[Wyvern]

Collier's World Atlas and Gazetteer, copyright 1937, P. F. & Son Corporation

You should know that to find "PALESTINE" that you use the alphabetical method. Just turn the pages....very user friendly. Oh, and if you care to look in the spot where "Israel" should be, you will find NOTHING. Since real books cannot be hacked or photoshopped, I hope you see the advantage of doing the work yourself instead of another dodge tactic such as "scan it and send it." Either you or someone else on the Zionist tag team would then doubtless claim it has been meddled with, further wasting my time. Go for it!

I find it interesting how you have latched onto the idea that in 1937 Palestine in name at least existed but Israel did not and somehow this gives credence to the idea that Israel should not exist. I did a little looking around and found some maps of the area prior to the disintegration of the Ottoman empire during WW1. Previous to the British Mandate Palestine also did not exist and in fact it was divided between three different Turkish administrative districts. An area that was formed from the disintegration of Turkey and only existed for thirty years and that exclusively as a British protectorate and from this you come to the conclusion that Palestine was an actual independant state with a national identity and as such it should be in possession of the land that is now Israel.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 38:

Collier's World Atlas and Gazetteer, copyright 1937, P. F. & Son Corporation

And as everybody knows, only this map is valid in the twenty-first century.

You should know that to find "PALESTINE" that you use the alphabetical method.

And here I am and don't know the alphabet, or how to get my hands on an atlas written before my momma got born.

Just turn the pages....very user friendly. Oh, and if you care to look in the spot where "Israel" should be, you will find NOTHING.

The same can be said of maps of Europe from 1037BC.

Since real books cannot be hacked or photoshopped, I hope you see the advantage of doing the work yourself instead of another dodge tactic such as "scan it and send it."

Talk to Ray Comfort, he got slammed for "hacking" Darwin's book.

I hope you can see the advantage in doing your own work - here by supporting your contentions - as opposed to expecting others to do your work for you.

Either you or someone else on the Zionist tag team would then doubtless claim it has been meddled with, further wasting my time. Go for it!

I propose the greatest "wasting of time" is presenting a map from the first half of last century as if it should apply to this'n.