2 Witnesses of Rev. 11=144,000 Christians; no Pre-T. Rapture

[holyisthelord]

the Two Witnesses of Rev. 11=144,000 Christians who will witness in pairs

Rev. 1:26: "the seven lampstands are the seven churches"

Rev. 2-3: only two churches are not rebuked: Smyrna & Philadelphia ("brotherly love")

Rev. 11:4: the "two witnesses" are "the two lampstands"

Matt. 10: "He sent them out two by two" [to witness the Gospel]

These two witnesses will be witnessing about Jesus in all "the great cities" (Rev. 11:8)- i.e. the Babylons "the great city" (Rev. 17:18)- of the Earth, including Rome, New York City, Hollywood Babylon, Paris Babylon, San Francisco ("Babylon by the Bay"), etc. They will have miraculous powers like Moses & Aaron to testify to their truth! They will be resurrected to show the whole world that Jesus really rose from the dead!

Many cities including Paris currently or in the past have fit the description of Mystery Babylon, including Paris which was the capital of Napoleon Empire & was thereby a foreshadowing of "the great city which rules over the kings of the Earth." (Rev. 17:18) This site discusses the many Babylons throughout world history: http://primaryproofsofchristianity.com/bible.html

The Bible indicates there are many Babylons by applying the language of Rev. 17-18 to many cities in the Bible, including Jerusalem (Deut. 4:6, Lam 1:1), Nineveh "the great city" (Jonah 1, Zeph. 2:15), Babylon, Tyrus/Tyre (Ezekiel 26-27), etc.

Only these people (who are equal to the 144,000) will be sealed so that they won't be harmed by the locusts (Rev. 7,9) and won't suffer in the wilderness of famine and thirst (Rev. 12) like the Jews & Jesus did (Exodus 16-17, Matt. 4).

"Pray at all times that you may be worthy to escape these things" (Luke 21) that "are about to come upon the whole habitable Earth" (Rev. 3:10), which you can only do if you "keep My Word of endurance" (Rev. 3:10) by meditating on God's holy Bible "day and night" (Psalm 1).

[ChristianGuy]

Wow Cathar. I'm really very impressed. I send a reply clearly stating that everything I wrote was pure educated guess and you try to claim that I am throwing it down your throat. Is this debatingchritianity.com or is it try-your-best-to-make-christians-look-bad .com? You can take what you want to believe from the Bible, I am not interested in forcing anyone to believe anything. Frankly, that comment was directed to holyisthelord and not you. What is logical is that the Bible would be written in the same format in the Old Testament as it is in the New Testament. Its logical that the patterns in the books of prophesy would be the same. Its not logical that a large 7-headed beast will literally rise out of the sea and everyone will praise and worship it. You're not a Christian, right? Okay, if a large 7-headed Beast came out of the sea, would you see him as your hero and praise him? If he literally immerged from the sea, would you not immediately freak out, or would you bow down to him and call him god? That is what I mean when I say, logical. In the Bible, you can go by these rules when trying to interpret prophesy. If its not logical (beast coming out of sea, great prostitute sitting on a large dragon) then its probably not literal. When it comes to stories in the Bible, if its not logical, its probably a miracle. Jesus performed many miracles. Though they seem super-natural, none of them cause beasts that are not of this world to come out of the ground and rule the world. The plagues of Moses involved only creatures that were already here. I haven't seen large dragons running around, however. That is what I mean by logical. Now you will say that the existence of God is not logical and this will turn into a never ending topic less thread that will have nothing to do with the witnesses. I think we should probably stay away from that however, because it will only result in you shooting down my claims and me shooting down your claims, each based on our own claims that neither of us agree on. So lets not go there. My Christian definition of logic is not too far off base is it? I mean, to you I'm off base by believing in God, but do you see what I mean by the word "logic." I mean "realistic." I do believe in God, but that doesn't mean that I am unrealistic. What you have to do is let the Bible interpret itself and now go on the first thing that you read, especially when concerning symbolism in prophesy. In the end, however, your guess is as good as mine, though I am fairly confident in my interpretation.

[coop101]

I'm new to the group, found this topic.

Could the two witness mention in Revelation Chapter 11 be Jesus the Christ and John the Baptist?. who the spirits of Elijah and Moses, was represented by these witness.

I was re-reading the book of John and got a slight surprise. John 1:6 "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe". the word witness jump out at me, and my mind went straight to Revelation chapter 11 concerning the two witness. and another thing cross my mind in verse 6 "a man sent from God". if the scripture would have said, "sent by God". well OK, but from God?. that got my attention. so I started to put two and two together and got only two. OK don't laugh, I know my math is bad, but let examine how I came to this conclusion.

I believe that we had the two witness as Elijah and Moses (as to description) was correct. but, are we still correct?. I say yes, if we can connect John the Baptist to Elijah. and Jesus the Christ to Moses.

Revelation 11:3 "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth"

there are four words in this scripture that I have bolded and underline. and an underline phase, that can or could help us to connect both Prophets of the new testament, (John and Jesus). to the two prophets of the old testament, (Elijah and Moses)


the witness Connection.

First of the Two witness. (John), Scripture: John 1:6 "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe". notice, John said witness, and too, sent from God.


Second of two witness: (Jesus), Scripture: John 18:37 "Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

notice, Jesus said, witness, and came I into the world. question came I from where. answer. John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. so both came from the father, and both are witness.


The Power Connection

to understand this we need to go to the book of Zechariah chapter 4. the Power is the Holy Spirit. read again all of chapter 4. now lets look at these verses 11-14 "Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


Anointed ones: who are they?. what do anointed means.

W.E. vines Dictionary: anointing,1. Verb,G218, aleipho The material used was either oil, or ointment. as in Luke 7:38, Luke 7:46.
anointing,2. Verb,G5548, chrio. 1; it is confined to "sacred and symbolical anointings;" of Christ as the "Anointed" of God, where it is used metaphorically in connection with "the oil of gladness." The title Christ signifies "The Anointed One," The word (Christos) is rendered "(His) Anointed" . Once it is said of believers, 2Cor 1:21. Chrio is very frequent in the Sept., and is used of kings, 1Sam 10:1, and priests, Exod 28:41, and prophets, 1Kgs 19:16. Among the Greeks it was used in other senses than the ceremonial, but in the Scriptures it is not found in connection with secular matters.


so the connection is the "oil" and the oil represent the Holy Spirit. so the two witness is endowed with the Holy Spirit. Lest see that then?.

Zechariah 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.


First the Anointing of (John), Scripture: Luke 1:11 "And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. 12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him. 13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. 17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

so here in this scripture, not only do we have the Anointing of John with the Holy Spirit, but also the connection with the spirit & power of Elijah.

and as Zechariah said "that stand by the Lord of the whole earth", Luke states, "For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord". Connection #1 is made.


now the Anointing of (Jesus) at his birth same as John, and at his baptism also. and his connection to Moses. Scripture: Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Matthews 3:16 "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


Lastly, Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.


now the connection to Moses.
Deuteronomy 18:14 "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken".
now, this scripture locked it in for me. it came from the mouth of a Holy disciple who was the first martyr of the new covenant. Brother Stephen.

Acts 7:37 "This is that Moses who said to the children of Israel, 'The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear". Just as the apostle Peter declared on the day of Pentecost when referring to the gifts of the Holy Spirit. he used the same type of language. "this is that". Acts2:16 "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel". Peter let us know where this was coming from, by saying "this is that". Now Stephen uses the same type of language to identity Jesus. "This is that Moses" not only do Stephen states that, as in Deuteronomy, a prophets will God raise 18:15, but he gives the name "Moses" which he connects with "Jesus the Christ". see Acts 6:14 for he was talking about Jesus.


This is the conformation Scripture, and other scriptures that confirms That Jesus is one of the two witness. now this also disclaim any other prophet or prophets or other religions from claiming that their prophet is the one mention by Moses.


so now the connection is made with Jesus and Moses.



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stop for a minute, this is a side bar of information on Jesus and John (especially a inside look at the true nature or the Symbiotic union of our Lord and Saviour) check this out. in Exodus, when God sent Moses to Pharaoh. Moses complain of a speech impediment. but watch what God do for him. God took Moses brother, Aaron, made him Moses prophet, and made Moses a god to Pharaoh. now this is good inside information. let look at the scripture


Exodus 4:10 And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue. 11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD? 12 Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say. 13 And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send. 14 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart. 15 And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do. Exod 7:2; 16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God. 17 And thou shalt take this rod in thine hand, wherewith thou shalt do signs.


Now, God himself confirm this again, plain and simple.

Exodus 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.


Jesus and John was kinsman, just as Moses and Aaron was kinsman. but now, we can see as a god?. just as he made Moses a god to Pharaoh and Aaron, so have God made Jesus the god to his kingdom. Just as John spoke or went before Jesus, the same was as Arron spoke before Moses. Jesus is the god of the new covenant and the faithful witness of Revelation 11. the same as to John the Baptist. John stated that Jesus was way superior to him. he said, Matthews 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire". Notice what John said "Mightier than I". (that's the mighty God in Isa. 9:6) "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace". Notice also he said "the everlasting Father". the Mighty God and the everlasting Farther is the same one. Jesus is God. Scripture: Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, (is the image, man) thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant,(here to serve) and was made in the likeness of men: ; 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth. 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


John was not worthy to bear his shoes. what a Mighty God we serve. but what did Jesus say about John. Luke 7:24 "And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind? 25 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts. 26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet. 27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he".

there is so much information in just this few scripture. it will take more time to retrieve all of the revelations here. but let's go on.

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Now to prophesy: this mean to preach. according to W.E.Vine's Dictionary of New Testament Words

Prophecy, Prophesy, Prophesying: <A-1,Noun,4394,propheteia> signifies "the speaking forth of the mind and counsel of God" (pro, "forth," phemi, "to speak:" (here in this usage preach) used as a noun. now the word to foretell future events, and that word is. <C-1,Verb,4395,propheteuo>

"to be a prophet, to prophesy,". of foretelling the future. this is the verb use of prophesy, or Prophesying. these two words have different meaning, study them.

(John), Scripture: Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

John here is the first preacher.

(Jesus), Scriptures: Matthews 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised". here, not only do we see Jesus preaching, but his anointing.


Now the last part of this scripture. "they shall prophesy (preach), a thousand two hundred and threescore days". a thousand two hundred and threescore days = 1260 divided by 365 = 3 years and one half. the exact years of Jesus public ministry. and also John's public ministry.


now, Cloths in sackcloth, meaning preaching repentance. sackcloth means penitence.


(John) Scripture, Matthews 3:1 "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.


(Jesus) Scripture, Matthews 4:16 "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand".


Here are some only some compiled similarities between Jesus the Christ and Moses.

1. both have a close relationship with God the Father. Moses a face to face. Physical (human) meeting. Jesus a Spiritual Face to face.

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


2. both were ordained by God the Father to deliver his people from bondage. Moses Physical bondage, Jesus Spiritual bondage


3. both Moses and Jesus were saved from death when they were small children, while most other Israelite male children of the same age and place of birth were murdered.


4. both Jesus and Moses refused the possibility to become rulers in their age. Satan offered Jesus the rule over the kingdoms of this world (Matthew 4:8-9), but Jesus rejected that offer and chose to suffer and die for the sake of the people of Israel. Moses acted in a similar manner; he had been raised as a son in a royal family, and he could have had a lavish lifestyle, but he chose differently. he suffered for the people sake.


5. both Jesus and Moses were "called out of Egypt".


6. both Moses and Jesus interceded for Israel, not allowing the destruction of the nation


7. both Jesus and Moses "mediated" between Israel and the true God who is in Heaven, and revealed the things of God to Israel.


this is just a few, their're many more.


here is just one example of the similarities between Elijah and John the Baptist, and when he stood up to it, his stance coast him his life for it.


Matthews 14:1 At that time Herod the tetrarch heard of the fame of Jesus, 2 And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him.

3 For Herod had laid hold on John, and bound him, and put him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife. 4 For John said unto him, It is not lawful for thee to have her. 5 And when he would have put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet. 6 But when Herod's birthday was kept, the daughter of Herodias danced before them, and pleased Herod.3 7 Whereupon he promised with an oath to give her whatsoever she would ask. 8 And she, being before instructed of her mother, said, Give me here John Baptist's head in a charger.


Just as Elijah confronted King Ahab and his wicked wife of that day, likewise John the Baptist confronted King Herod the tetrarch and his wicked wife of his day.




Now to confirm my finding;

Symbiotic unions
here a union, not a relationship, a dwelling of two or more spirits.

He was not Elijah in the flesh, but in spirit and Power. just as the scripture states. so it was not the man Elijah. but in his spirit.

17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.


and with Jesus, born of God and God dwelling in him. God was in in him reconciling the world unto himself. 2 Corinthians 5:19 "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation"


this is the whole reason why or the need of the Symbiotic union of Spirits in flesh. Moses, his in spirit was also in the body (flesh) of Jesus. Elijah, his spirit in John the Baptist.

Symbiotic Union, the dwelling or residing of two or more spirits in a person. this is nothing new. example do you not have the Holy Spirit in you. Greater is he in you than he that's in the world. understanding, this is a dwelling of the Holy Spirit, not a possession as with demons, taking over a body. a single person can have many spirits in them. as in the scripture. one man had many, called legion, because there was many. in a Symbiotic Union, it is a peaceful union of a residing or dwelling spirit. in our topic, John the Baptist, he takes on the title, the behavior, or act out the characteristics associated with a person spirit.in the case of John the Baptist, (Elijah). as in acting out the behavior, or characteristics of that person but having his own identity. he is he and you is you, but you can act as him on his authority, or behalf, just as we do on Jesus behalf (and we should act like Jesus). it's not you who do it but him in you that do it. Just as Jesus while in the flesh, God was in him reconciling the world to himself. Jesus stated, Not I, but he that dwells in me.


a better example. 2 Corinthians 6:16 "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people". and Matthews 25:40 "And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me". Now John 13:20 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me".

on the word Witness. I did a search on the word witness the Greek 3144

According to W.E. Vine's Dictionary of New Testament Words, Witness: 3144 martus / martur > (whence Eng., "martyr," one who bears "witness" by his death) denotes "one who can or does aver what he has seen or heard or knows.


this word witness,G3144 Martyr is interesting. why, because it only applies in the new testament to Jesus and John the Baptist. take note: (to God the father and the Holy Spirit). this is also interesting, why?. because both came from the Father. and both was in the Spirit of God.

Scripture: John 1:6 " There was a man sent from God, whose name was John". as for the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:15 "For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. so here we see not only John having the Spirit of God, but his anointing with the Spirit at birth.


now Jesus: John 5:23 "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him". I don't think there is not doubt about who sent Jesus. there are many more scriptures supporting that. and we know that Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit as well as filled with the spirit, at his baptism in the river Jordan.


so I encourage you to do a search of the the word witness G3144.


conclusion: if this research is true, then timelines and identities must be re-looked at, and re-evaluated.

[Slopeshoulder]

The Bible IS exact, but you have to pray and read extremely diligently to attain the truth. It took me many many many hours pondering Revelation & the rest of the Bible to come up with what I posted above, but now that I made that discovery, I know the whole Bible confirms it to be correct.

Sounds like someone is invested in their own theory.
Ever read any quality modern exegesis of the non-literal variety?

When religionists make claims about exactitude, lock the doors and hide the children.