Are Christians being persecuted in the US?

[msmcneal]

I'm not sure where the best forum would be for this debate, so if it's in the wrong spot, the mods should feel free to move it.

We've been hearing about Christians being persecuted alot lately in the USA. However, is there any truth to this? And if not, are Christians, mainly the conservative branches, actively trying to push their agenda on the rest of the American population? And as a bonus question, is this form of forcing conservative Christianity on the populace the idea the founding fathers had in mind?

[East of Eden]

Where do you get pacifism is a Christian idea? Christ never criticized anyone for being a soldier.

From Jesus, you might have heard of him.

'Turn the other cheek' refers to ignoring insults on a personal level, it doesn't mean nations should commit suicide when attacked. Ancient Israel certainly didn't. It was war that defeated the evils of Hitler and slavery.

[McCulloch]

'Turn the other cheek' refers to ignoring insults on a personal level, it doesn't mean nations should commit suicide when attacked. Ancient Israel certainly didn't. It was war that defeated the evils of Hitler and slavery.

That is your interpretation. The actual text reads

Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either. Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back.

There is no reference to insults. The reference is to someone hitting you. Jesus says that if someone hits you on the cheek, to let him hit you on the other. He is not talking about simply ignoring insults.

Ancient Israel, according to Jesus, would have been following "You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' " Jesus indicates that he has different instructions. He uses the phrase, "But I say to you" before he gives this

do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

Other than a reference to taxes, Jesus nowhere indicates that he is interested in the protection of nations. The New Testament give no guidance for how to establish a Christian nation. Did you ever wonder why? One idea is that the writers of the New Testament did not consider that Christians could ever be in a position to rule.

[East of Eden]

That is your interpretation.

And that of most of Christendom. Pacifism is an extreme fringe view.

There is no reference to insults. The reference is to someone hitting you. Jesus says that if someone hits you on the cheek, to let him hit you on the other. He is not talking about simply ignoring insults.

Whatever. The point is it is directed at us as individuals, not nations. For example, we are directed to care for the poor personally, not as a nation. Whatever the government spends on that doesn't get us off the hook.

Other than a reference to taxes, Jesus nowhere indicates that he is interested in the protection of nations.

I agree. In fact I'd say our current problems in the USA may very well be His judgement.

The New Testament give no guidance for how to establish a Christian nation. Did you ever wonder why?

No, why would I? "My kingdom is not of this world."

[McCulloch]

That is your interpretation.

And that of most of Christendom. Pacifism is an extreme fringe view.

True. The actual teachings of Jesus are far more difficult than the teachings of most of Christendom.

There is no reference to insults. The reference is to someone hitting you. Jesus says that if someone hits you on the cheek, to let him hit you on the other. He is not talking about simply ignoring insults.

Whatever. The point is it is directed at us as individuals, not nations.

So then how can an individual function as a soldier while observing and following this teaching?

For example, we are directed to care for the poor personally, not as a nation. Whatever the government spends on that doesn't get us off the hook.

I suppose that depends on your view of what government is. If you hold the biblical belief that governments are set up by God then of course you are correct. If, however, you hold to the enlightenment belief of government by the people, for the people, then you see what the government does as a collective act.

Other than a reference to taxes, Jesus nowhere indicates that he is interested in the protection of nations.

I agree. In fact I'd say our current problems in the USA may very well be His judgement.

Perhaps we should debate whether patriotism and Christianity are compatible.

The New Testament give no guidance for how to establish a Christian nation. Did you ever wonder why?

No, why would I? "My kingdom is not of this world."

Good reference. I wonder why so many Christians fail to notice that and try to establish Christian nations.

[East of Eden]

So then how can an individual function as a soldier while observing and following this teaching?

By your reasoning a Christian could not be a policeman, prison guard, or even school hallroom monitor. Of course Jesus was not telling those people to turn the other cheek in their occupation, or the occupation of soldier. Again, Jesus had an interaction with a believing Roman centurian. He commended Him for his faith, but said nothing critical of his occupation. Why is that?

If, however, you hold to the enlightenment belief of government by the people, for the people, then you see what the government does as a collective act.

Count me in for the Biblical belief, not the Enlightenment one believed by Obama. Interesting he gives next to nothing personally to charity, but is very generous with other people's money.

Perhaps we should debate whether patriotism and Christianity are compatible.

Interesting question. My loyalty to country certainly comes after loyalty to God.

Good reference. I wonder why so many Christians fail to notice that and try to establish Christian nations.

Who is trying to establish a state religion in the US, like the Church of England?

[East of Eden]

BTW, the way Miss California was treated due to her expressing her Christian beliefs answers the OP.

[cnorman18]

BTW, the way Miss California was treated due to her expressing her Christian beliefs answers the OP.

I don't recall that Ms. PreJean mentioned Christianity or alluded to her beliefs being based on it; and if she were being "persecuted," she wouldn't have been the first runner-up. "Persecution" also doesn't fit very well with her remarks being rebroadcast on every news and talk show this side of the Moon over the last few days.

Here's a thought to consider: Having others publicly take exception to your views isn't "persecution." It's called "freedom of speech."

[East of Eden]

I don't recall that Ms. PreJean mentioned Christianity or alluded to her beliefs being based on it; and if she were being "persecuted," she wouldn't have been the first runner-up. "Persecution" also doesn't fit very well with her remarks being rebroadcast on every news and talk show this side of the Moon over the last few days.

You must have missed her many interviews where she explicitly cited her faith for her beliefs.

Here's a thought to consider: Having others publicly take exception to your views isn't "persecution." It's called "freedom of speech."

Being called a 'stupid b****' by that idiot judge because of her faith beliefs is persecucation. She was probably penalized by him because of her beliefs.

[McCulloch]

So then how can an individual function as a soldier while observing and following this teaching?

By your reasoning a Christian could not be a policeman, prison guard, or even school hallroom monitor.

I'm not the one claiming that Jesus' teachings were good or consistent.

Of course Jesus was not telling those people to turn the other cheek in their occupation, or the occupation of soldier.

Are you trying to say that Jesus was teaching that there are different standards of behavior for one's personal and professional life?

Again, Jesus had an interaction with a believing Roman centurian. He commended Him for his faith, but said nothing critical of his occupation. Why is that?

Beats me. Jesus doesn't tell the centurion to quit the army, but then the centurion doesn't ask how to follow Jesus, either. You seem to be making the argument from silence: that since Jesus did not expressly condemn the centurion for being a soldier, it follows that military participation is right for the Christian. Using the same logic one could argue for the practice of slavery, the position taken by Christian slave holders in the American south. But the explicit teachings of the New Testament including the principle of love and respect for the worth of each individual, seem to me to be stronger than this argument from silence.

If, however, you hold to the enlightenment belief of government by the people, for the people, then you see what the government does as a collective act.

Count me in for the Biblical belief, not the Enlightenment one believed by Obama.

And Adams, Jefferson, Jackson, Franklin ...
The Biblical instruction is that the King is appointed by God and your country should not have rebelled against his authority. And over taxation without representation. What did Jesus say about taxes?

Perhaps we should debate whether patriotism and Christianity are compatible.

Interesting question. My loyalty to country certainly comes after loyalty to God.

Do not love the world nor the things in the world If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.

[cnorman18]

I don't recall that Ms. PreJean mentioned Christianity or alluded to her beliefs being based on it; and if she were being "persecuted," she wouldn't have been the first runner-up. "Persecution" also doesn't fit very well with her remarks being rebroadcast on every news and talk show this side of the Moon over the last few days.

You must have missed her many interviews where she explicitly cited her faith for her beliefs.

She didn't mention it at the pageant, which is where you allege this "persecution" happened; and I've seen no evidence of "persecution" since.

Here's a thought to consider: Having others publicly take exception to your views isn't "persecution." It's called "freedom of speech."

Being called a 'stupid b****' by that idiot judge because of her faith beliefs is persecucation. She was probably penalized by him because of her beliefs.

That is "persecution" by one insufferable jerk, who ended up looking like just that; it certainly doesn't constitute persecution by an entire nation, which seems to be the subject here. And as I said, she did come in second. If she was truly "persecuted" by everyone, she would have come in last.

If one nasty remark constitutes 'persecution," then everyone everywhere is being persecuted daily. Don't devalue and trivialize the term when it isn't warranted. There are places in the world where Christians ARE being persecuted, and brutally. The United States isn't one of them.