Faith without works saves or works required.

[McCulloch]

[micatala]

I'll see your one or two examples of Jesus stressing "faith" and raise you with the following overwhelming series of quotes that show that what Jesus (and/or) is most interested in is not what we "profess" but what we DO: (numerous examples follow)

So what? Just because he spoke about works more, do works then automatically negate the faith part of it that Jesus taught?

Are you saved by what Christ did or by what you do?

We seem to be having two different conversations. I'm addressing how people are initially saved, which leads to works, and you're stressing works and not how one is saved.

What exactly is your salvation equation?

Salvation is achieved by ........ ?

If you add works to the salvation equation, then what kind? How many? And how do you know when you're saved? Jesus saved the thief on the cross by faith. Where were his works? Had the thief lived he would have produced Godly works (assuming he was indwelt and led by the Holy Spirit).

I also asked you a number of questions in my previous posts you have not answered.

The works versus faith question is, in my view, a thorny one, but for the most part, I would side with Easyrider here. We are not saved by works, or at least not by works alone. If it were so, we would have to get into the questions that Easyrider raises. How many works? What kind? etc.

For me, the problematic part is that if we are saved by 'faith alone', we are counting on something that could be considered somewhat subjective. We could even ask the same 'how much faith' is enough. We are also prone to self-deception. Certainly the Pharisees that are so reviled within the gospels would have considered themselves saved. Certainly those described as goats by Jesus in the parable of the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew chapter 25 considered themselves saved.

Some of Jesus' teachings seem indicate that 'works' helps determine your place in the Kingdom of Heaven, but not whether or not you get in. If you can keep the law, you might be considered greater than another member of the kingdom who does not, but you are both in the kingdom. Keeping the law on its own does not make you a member of the kingdom, otherwise, again, the Pharisees Jesus so reviles would also be in. Jesus criticizes them more for their hardness of heart and hypocrisy than for their lack of works.

Works can serve as an external symbol of the 'saved heart.' Lack of works can cause others to doubt the strength of faith of the one who exhibits the lack. However, only God can judge the heart and whether this lack indicates a 'lack of salvation' if that is possible.

In my view, keeping the law, certainly the OT law, is quite optional for Christians. However, it does behoove us to do the work of the kingdom as much as we are able. We are called to love each other and be of benefit to each other. Even if doing no works does not lose us our salvation, it does potentially indicate a lack of commitment and maturity.

[McCulloch]

The works versus faith question is, in my view, a thorny one, but for the most part, I would side with Easyrider here. We are not saved by works, or at least not by works alone. If it were so, we would have to get into the questions that Easyrider raises. How many works? What kind? etc.

To my knowledge, no one claims salvation by works alone, not even James. The issue of how many works and what kind applies equally to faith as works, as you, yourself point out.

For me, the problematic part is that if we are saved by 'faith alone', we are counting on something that could be considered somewhat subjective. We could even ask the same 'how much faith' is enough. We are also prone to self-deception. Certainly the Pharisees that are so reviled within the gospels would have considered themselves saved. Certainly those described as goats by Jesus in the parable of the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew chapter 25 considered themselves saved.

So, we can conclude that believing oneself to be saved is not sufficient. I really doubt that you will get any significant argument on that point either.

Some of Jesus' teachings seem indicate that 'works' helps determine your place in the Kingdom of Heaven, but not whether or not you get in.

Read Matthew 25:31-46 cited in the OP again. Jesus is dividing the sheep from the goats based on works. The goats are not awarded a lesser place in the kingdom, are they?

If you can keep the law, you might be considered greater than another member of the kingdom who does not, but you are both in the kingdom. Keeping the law on its own does not make you a member of the kingdom, otherwise, again, the Pharisees Jesus so reviles would also be in. Jesus criticizes them more for their hardness of heart and hypocrisy than for their lack of works.

Look at the passages cited. Jesus and James are not talking about works of the law. Their examples show works of genuine concern for others' well being. Keeping the law is not an issue.

Works can serve as an external symbol of the 'saved heart.' Lack of works can cause others to doubt the strength of faith of the one who exhibits the lack. However, only God can judge the heart and whether this lack indicates a 'lack of salvation' if that is possible.

Apparently, God himself will be looking at the lack of works at judgment. Perhaps the amount of works is kept deliberately vague because the correct amount is as much as you can.

In my view, keeping the law, certainly the OT law, is quite optional for Christians. However, it does behoove us to do the work of the kingdom as much as we are able.

How much is that? "One thing you lack, sell all that you have and give to the poor." "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."

We are called to love each other and be of benefit to each other. Even if doing no works does not lose us our salvation, it does potentially indicate a lack of commitment and maturity.

How is it anyone can claim to have faith if they lack commitment? Maybe we need a thread about what is faith, Biblically.

[Catharsis]

Faith and Works: A Letter from St. Macarius of Optina to a layman
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/s ... works.aspx

Justification by Faith Alone? The Reply of Patriarch Jeremiah II to the Lutheran Tubingen Theologians (16th cent.)
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/faithalone.aspx

[Easyrider]

Some of Jesus' teachings seem indicate that 'works' helps determine your place in the Kingdom of Heaven, but not whether or not you get in.

Read Matthew 25:31-46 cited in the OP again. Jesus is dividing the sheep from the goats based on works. The goats are not awarded a lesser place in the kingdom, are they?

See my post # 7. The works of God are the result of regeneration and the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit (who is identified as the "Seal of Redemption"), who leads the (saved) believer into them. Put it on a chronological timeline and it makes more sense (again, see my post # 7).

[McCulloch]

The works of God are the result of regeneration and the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit (who is identified as the "Seal of Redemption"), who leads the (saved) believer into them. Put it on a chronological timeline and it makes more sense (again, see my post # 7).

I guess Jesus forgot that bit when he described the final judgment.

Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.

The king, in this passage is blessing the righteous not because they had faith or because they received grace. He is clearly blessing them because of their works.

[Easyrider]

The works of God are the result of regeneration and the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit (who is identified as the "Seal of Redemption"), who leads the (saved) believer into them. Put it on a chronological timeline and it makes more sense (again, see my post # 7).

I guess Jesus forgot that bit when he described the final judgment.

Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.

The king, in this passage is blessing the righteous not because they had faith or because they received grace. He is clearly blessing them because of their works.

Nice try. He's talking about the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25:33). The sheep are God's / Christ's people, and Christ said, "Unless you believe I am the one I claim to be you will indeed die in your sins." And, "He who has the son has life; he who does not have the son does not have everlasting life but the wrath of God is upon him." You need to focus more on the totality of scripture than pick out tidbits.

[micatala]

The works of God are the result of regeneration and the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit (who is identified as the "Seal of Redemption"), who leads the (saved) believer into them. Put it on a chronological timeline and it makes more sense (again, see my post # 7).

I guess Jesus forgot that bit when he described the final judgment.

Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.

The king, in this passage is blessing the righteous not because they had faith or because they received grace. He is clearly blessing them because of their works.

Nice try. He's talking about the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25:33). The sheep are God's / Christ's people, and Christ said, "Unless you believe I am the one I claim to be you will indeed die in your sins." And, "He who has the son has life; he who does not have the son does not have everlasting life but the wrath of God is upon him." You need to focus more on the totality of scripture than pick out tidbits.

It is true that the sheep are described as those blessed by God.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

It is not clear from this passage, however, that they are 'Christian'. This is a common assumption based on fairly traditional interpretation of other passages, but it is nevertheless an assumption.

The other passage that might bear on this is the one which says 'not all who say Lord, Lord' will be saved.

In this passage, it does not say that the goats did minister to Jesus, only that they claim they did not fail to minister to him when he had needs. It is possible they simply never observed him in need.

The other lesson of this parable that has not been mentioned is the connotation that the sheep were not seeking to be saved or to justify themselves through their service. They indicate that they did not provide service to the Lord. However, their service to others is counted as service to the Lord. Their motivation for their good deeds is not indicated, but it seems to me that it was not done for religious reasons. In my opinion, their service stems from their spirit of unselfishness and willingness to help others.

[McCulloch]

The works of God are the result of regeneration and the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit (who is identified as the "Seal of Redemption"), who leads the (saved) believer into them. Put it on a chronological timeline and it makes more sense (again, see my post # 7).

I guess Jesus forgot that bit when he described the final judgment.

Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.

The king, in this passage is blessing the righteous not because they had faith or because they received grace. He is clearly blessing them because of their works.

Nice try. He's talking about the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25:33). The sheep are God's / Christ's people, and Christ said, "Unless you believe I am the one I claim to be you will indeed die in your sins." And, "He who has the son has life; he who does not have the son does not have everlasting life but the wrath of God is upon him." You need to focus more on the totality of scripture than pick out tidbits.

Jesus taught that faith is required for entrance into the kingdom of heaven. Unless you believe I am the one I claim to be you will indeed die in your sins. AND he taught that the final judgment of the sheep from the goats will be based on works. You need to critically combine the teachings of all of your holy scripture rather than hang on a single concept and interpreting all others in light of your understanding of that.

[Easyrider]

The works of God are the result of regeneration and the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit (who is identified as the "Seal of Redemption"), who leads the (saved) believer into them. Put it on a chronological timeline and it makes more sense (again, see my post # 7).

I guess Jesus forgot that bit when he described the final judgment.

Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.

The king, in this passage is blessing the righteous not because they had faith or because they received grace. He is clearly blessing them because of their works.

Nice try. He's talking about the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25:33). The sheep are God's / Christ's people, and Christ said, "Unless you believe I am the one I claim to be you will indeed die in your sins." And, "He who has the son has life; he who does not have the son does not have everlasting life but the wrath of God is upon him." You need to focus more on the totality of scripture than pick out tidbits.

Jesus taught that faith is required for entrance into the kingdom of heaven. Unless you believe I am the one I claim to be you will indeed die in your sins. AND he taught that the final judgment of the sheep from the goats will be based on works. You need to critically combine the teachings of all of your holy scripture rather than hang on a single concept and interpreting all others in light of your understanding of that.

See my post # 7 on the relationship between faith and works. You're still missing all that. I provided numerous scriptural references to back it up. And, if you need more from the NT, there's a specific passage that elaborates on the relationship between faith, works, rewards, and salvation, i.e.

I Corinthians 3:11-15:

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

The Full Life Study Bible provides these remarks on the above passage:

"HE WILL SUFFER LOSS: There is a future judgment for believers (I John 4:17) as to the degree of their faithfulness to God and the grace given to them during this life on earth (v.10; 4:2-5; 2 Cor.5:10). In that judgment there is the possibility that a believer, although receiving salvation, may experience great loss (Greek zemloo, meaning 'to suffer loss or damage'). The careless believer is in danger of suffering loss or damage in the following ways: (1) a feeling of shame at Christ's coming (2 Ti. 2:15; 1 John 2:28); (2) loss of his or her life's work for God (vv. 12-15); (3) loss of glory and honor before God (cf. Romans 2:7); (4) loss of opportunity for service and authority in heaven (Mt. 25:14-30); (5) a low position in heaven (Mt. 25:14-30); (6) loss of rewards (cf. v. 14-15); and (7) repayment for the wrong done to others (Col. 3:24-25).

AS ONE ESCAPING THROUGH THE FLAMES: 'Escaping through the flames' is an expression meaning 'barely saved.' God will evaluate the quality of life, influence, teaching, and work in the church of each person. If his work is judged unworthy, he will lose his (heavenly) reward, yet he himself will be saved." ( Full Life 1755-56)

Godly works do not result in justification, but are directed towards the edification and salvation of others, and eventually result in some type of heavenly rewards. For those who may have been saved just prior to death (the thief on the cross), there may not be any works to reward, yet their salvation is yet assured. It is my contention that once a person is regenerated, eventually, if they live long enough, there should be some sort of Godly works in their life (James chapter 2).

I was also thinking about a couple of other related points. One being that if works have to be part of the salvation equation then no one on their death bed can ever repent and be saved.

Finally, Jesus is saying people will be judged on their works, not specifically saved by them. If people can "work" their way to salvation then Jesus' atoning sacrifice at Calvary for the remission of sins was completely unnecessary.

[Jester]

Jesus taught that faith is required for entrance into the kingdom of heaven. Unless you believe I am the one I claim to be you will indeed die in your sins. AND he taught that the final judgment of the sheep from the goats will be based on works. You need to critically combine the teachings of all of your holy scripture rather than hang on a single concept and interpreting all others in light of your understanding of that.

Indeed.
I would add something to the argument here. The word Paul uses for "faith" (πίστις, or pis'-tis) means trust in God, but also moral conviction of God's laws. This is to say that it is the inner conviction about the morals (as well as trusting God personally) is the point.
Thus, faith can't really can't be (in any practical way at the very least) seperated from the doing of good works.