The Garden

[achilles12604]

What do you think the Garden for Adam and Eve would have looked like (assume it a litteral here)?

Could our intended state according to Christianity be one of ignorant bliss? After all Adam and Eve could run around naked and not even think about it, they had no knowledge of good and evil and they had never sinned. This sounds like my 3 year old daughter.

Could this be the type of state Jesus means when he teaches we must be like little children if we are to inherit heaven?

Last one - Do you think that this is what heaven might be like?

[frozencell]

Greatest I Am,

You give a very perceptive take on the passages in the Bible that have long been considered "doom and gloom" circumstances. I am Catholic and take the stories in the Bible both allegorically and literally (depending). Many people have a negative take on the "punsihments from a loving God". I have read what you have to say and see that you have dedicated a decent amount of thought to your interpretation of the passages. While I do not hold all your beliefs (destined to not be "dumb animals"), I do think you have struck a truth in your idea that God was not so much being mean and sadistic as He was simply relaying the consequences of actions. After all, the universe does run on the simple notions ofcause and effect. These examples are as commomplace and everyday as parents disciplining their children for disobeying or doing something that would harm them, either in the long ir short-term.

Saying that God is a sadistic and malevolent being based on the consequences of OUR actions is like blaming the homeowner for someone else burning down their house and going to jail for it.

No, the analogy would be if the homeowner left a couple of 3 year old children alone at home with matches and kerosene and then threw them in jail for burning down the house.

I admit your analogy is a little more specific. More specifically, the mathes and kerosene were put on a hugh shelf and the kids were told not to mess with them.

[Metatron]

Greatest I Am,

You give a very perceptive take on the passages in the Bible that have long been considered "doom and gloom" circumstances. I am Catholic and take the stories in the Bible both allegorically and literally (depending). Many people have a negative take on the "punsihments from a loving God". I have read what you have to say and see that you have dedicated a decent amount of thought to your interpretation of the passages. While I do not hold all your beliefs (destined to not be "dumb animals"), I do think you have struck a truth in your idea that God was not so much being mean and sadistic as He was simply relaying the consequences of actions. After all, the universe does run on the simple notions ofcause and effect. These examples are as commomplace and everyday as parents disciplining their children for disobeying or doing something that would harm them, either in the long ir short-term.

Saying that God is a sadistic and malevolent being based on the consequences of OUR actions is like blaming the homeowner for someone else burning down their house and going to jail for it.

No, the analogy would be if the homeowner left a couple of 3 year old children alone at home with matches and kerosene and then threw them in jail for burning down the house.

I admit your analogy is a little more specific. More specifically, the mathes and kerosene were put on a hugh shelf and the kids were told not to mess with them.

Have to disagree. In Genesis, Adam and Eve are innocents with no comprehension of good and evil before they eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, thus no moral basis for making decisions. The aforementioned tree is accessible in the Garden, not difficult to reach. Furthermore, some talking snake shows up to tell them that it IS okay to eat the fruit. Having no moral compass to guide their decision, they go with the last thing they are told and eat the fruit. And are subsequently punished for an act which they were not competent to make.

Based on this, I'd revise the analogy to state that the homeowner left the children alone with the matches and kerosene, another adult shows up and tells them it's okay to play with matches, and the homeowner has them thrown in jail for burning down the house.

[Scrotum]

Greatest I Am,

You give a very perceptive take on the passages in the Bible that have long been considered "doom and gloom" circumstances. I am Catholic and take the stories in the Bible both allegorically and literally (depending). Many people have a negative take on the "punsihments from a loving God". I have read what you have to say and see that you have dedicated a decent amount of thought to your interpretation of the passages. While I do not hold all your beliefs (destined to not be "dumb animals"), I do think you have struck a truth in your idea that God was not so much being mean and sadistic as He was simply relaying the consequences of actions. After all, the universe does run on the simple notions ofcause and effect. These examples are as commomplace and everyday as parents disciplining their children for disobeying or doing something that would harm them, either in the long ir short-term.

Saying that God is a sadistic and malevolent being based on the consequences of OUR actions is like blaming the homeowner for someone else burning down their house and going to jail for it.

No, the analogy would be if the homeowner left a couple of 3 year old children alone at home with matches and kerosene and then threw them in jail for burning down the house.

I admit your analogy is a little more specific. More specifically, the mathes and kerosene were put on a hugh shelf and the kids were told not to mess with them.

Have to disagree. In Genesis, Adam and Eve are innocents with no comprehension of good and evil before they eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, thus no moral basis for making decisions. The aforementioned tree is accessible in the Garden, not difficult to reach. Furthermore, some talking snake shows up to tell them that it IS okay to eat the fruit. Having no moral compass to guide their decision, they go with the last thing they are told and eat the fruit. And are subsequently punished for an act which they were not competent to make.

Based on this, I'd revise the analogy to state that the homeowner left the children alone with the matches and kerosene, another adult shows up and tells them it's okay to play with matches, and the homeowner has them thrown in jail for burning down the house.

Metatron, this could be debated.

How do you mean "Good & Evil" ? They DID eat from the Tree, and according to Gods rule, this was "bad", or another word for it, would be evil.

In that case God set up the option to become/continue being Evil (as if no Tree, Evil could could not arose), and this was his plan. As claimed, God knows Everything, Remember?

[Greatest I Am]

Greatest I Am,

You give a very perceptive take on the passages in the Bible that have long been considered "doom and gloom" circumstances. I am Catholic and take the stories in the Bible both allegorically and literally (depending). Many people have a negative take on the "punishments from a loving God". I have read what you have to say and see that you have dedicated a decent amount of thought to your interpretation of the passages. While I do not hold all your beliefs (destined to not be "dumb animals"), I do think you have struck a truth in your idea that God was not so much being mean and sadistic as He was simply relaying the consequences of actions. After all, the universe does run on the simple notions of cause and effect. These examples are as commonplace and everyday as parents disciplining their children for disobeying or doing something that would harm them, either in the long or short-term.

Saying that God is a sadistic and malevolent being based on the consequences of OUR actions is like blaming the homeowner for someone else burning down their house and going to jail for it.

No, the analogy would be if the homeowner left a couple of 3 year old children alone at home with matches and kerosene and then threw them in jail for burning down the house.

I admit your analogy is a little more specific. More specifically, the maches and kerosene were put on a high shelf and the kids were told not to mess with them.

Have to disagree. In Genesis, Adam and Eve are innocents with no comprehension of good and evil before they eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, thus no moral basis for making decisions. The aforementioned tree is accessible in the Garden, not difficult to reach. Furthermore, some talking snake shows up to tell them that it IS okay to eat the fruit. Having no moral compass to guide their decision, they go with the last thing they are told and eat the fruit. And are subsequently punished for an act which they were not competent to make.

Based on this, I'd revise the analogy to state that the homeowner left the children alone with the matches and kerosene, another adult shows up and tells them it's okay to play with matches, and the homeowner has them thrown in jail for burning down the house.

Metatron, this could be debated.

How do you mean "Good & Evil" ? They DID eat from the Tree, and according to Gods rule, this was "bad", or another word for it, would be evil.

GIA wrote
I do not recall reading that God used these words in the beginning.

In that case God set up the option to become/continue being Evil (as if no Tree, Evil could could not arose), and this was his plan. As claimed, God knows Everything, Remember?

GIA wrote
I think that God created evil. He is not evil.

If we had not escaped from the Garden of ignorance then we would not be doing God's wish. If He wanted it differently He would have changed it when only two lives were involved, not wait for many more before coming to do something about it.

God creates Perfection. The world, in it's perfection awaits the return of Jesus.

Regards
DL

[Metatron]

Greatest I Am,

You give a very perceptive take on the passages in the Bible that have long been considered "doom and gloom" circumstances. I am Catholic and take the stories in the Bible both allegorically and literally (depending). Many people have a negative take on the "punsihments from a loving God". I have read what you have to say and see that you have dedicated a decent amount of thought to your interpretation of the passages. While I do not hold all your beliefs (destined to not be "dumb animals"), I do think you have struck a truth in your idea that God was not so much being mean and sadistic as He was simply relaying the consequences of actions. After all, the universe does run on the simple notions ofcause and effect. These examples are as commomplace and everyday as parents disciplining their children for disobeying or doing something that would harm them, either in the long ir short-term.

Saying that God is a sadistic and malevolent being based on the consequences of OUR actions is like blaming the homeowner for someone else burning down their house and going to jail for it.

No, the analogy would be if the homeowner left a couple of 3 year old children alone at home with matches and kerosene and then threw them in jail for burning down the house.

I admit your analogy is a little more specific. More specifically, the mathes and kerosene were put on a hugh shelf and the kids were told not to mess with them.

Have to disagree. In Genesis, Adam and Eve are innocents with no comprehension of good and evil before they eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, thus no moral basis for making decisions. The aforementioned tree is accessible in the Garden, not difficult to reach. Furthermore, some talking snake shows up to tell them that it IS okay to eat the fruit. Having no moral compass to guide their decision, they go with the last thing they are told and eat the fruit. And are subsequently punished for an act which they were not competent to make.

Based on this, I'd revise the analogy to state that the homeowner left the children alone with the matches and kerosene, another adult shows up and tells them it's okay to play with matches, and the homeowner has them thrown in jail for burning down the house.

Metatron, this could be debated.

How do you mean "Good & Evil" ? They DID eat from the Tree, and according to Gods rule, this was "bad", or another word for it, would be evil.

In that case God set up the option to become/continue being Evil (as if no Tree, Evil could could not arose), and this was his plan. As claimed, God knows Everything, Remember?

My point is that Adam and Eve in the story have no concept of morality before they eat the fruit. They only learn the difference between Good and Evil AFTER they eat the fruit. In other words, they are accused of committing a sin against God at a time when they did not understand what a sin is. Furthermore, they were told by the talking snake that it was okay to eat the fruit. Having no moral compass to use in making decisions, they went with the last thing they were told, the advice of the snake. And, in my opinion, unfairly punished by God.

[Metatron]

I think that God created evil. He is not evil.

Not sure how an all good God can or even desires to create evil.

If we had not escaped from the Garden of ignorance then we would not be doing God's wish. If He wanted it differently He would have changed it when only two lives were involved, not wait for many more before coming to do something about it.

It this is what God wants in the first place, why go through this cruel charade of dangling paradise in front of Adam and Eve only to snatch it away (unfairly I might add) and inflicting undeserved punishments. Why not simply create them as moral beings in the first place and be done with it?

God creates Perfection. The world, in it's perfection awaits the return of Jesus.

How is the world perfect? Certainly man is not perfect? Are we not part of creation?

[Greatest I Am]

I think that God created evil. He is not evil.

Not sure how an all good God can or even desires to create evil.

GIA wrote
His knowledge knows that all issues have a positive and a negative side.
Balancing these issues is our job.

If we had not escaped from the Garden of ignorance then we would not be doing God's wish. If He wanted it differently He would have changed it when only two lives were involved, not wait for many more before coming to do something about it.

It this is what God wants in the first place, why go through this cruel charade of dangling paradise in front of Adam and Eve only to snatch it away (unfairly I might add) and inflicting undeserved punishments. Why not simply create them as moral beings in the first place and be done with it?

GIA wrote
Knowledge has a price. To know the moral good , we must also know the moral evil.

If by paradise, you mean the garden of ignorance then let's all thank God that Eve had the balls to get us out of there.
If you mean Heaven then rest assured that we all get there. God is greedy and makes all souls Perfect.

God creates Perfection. The world, in it's perfection awaits the return of Jesus.

How is the world perfect? Certainly man is not perfect? Are we not part of creation?

GIA wrote
Do not be put off by a few crazies.

Are you suggesting that God lacks the power to create a Perfect reality for man to thrive in. Your god must be inferior to mine. Mine is Perfect and reality is exactly as it should be.

Population grow and more of us seek God than ever before.
Should look good to the big guy.

Regards
DL

[Metatron]

GIA wrote
Do not be put off by a few crazies.

Are you suggesting that God lacks the power to create a Perfect reality for man to thrive in. Your god must be inferior to mine. Mine is Perfect and reality is exactly as it should be.

Population grow and more of us seek God than ever before.
Should look good to the big guy.

Regards
DL

1. An omnipotent God would have the power to create a perfect reality. So why didn't he?

2. I don't have a god. If I did, he wouldn't look very much like YHWH.

3. Your definition of perfect must be quite different from mine.

[Greatest I Am]

GIA wrote
Do not be put off by a few crazies.

Are you suggesting that God lacks the power to create a Perfect reality for man to thrive in. Your god must be inferior to mine. Mine is Perfect and reality is exactly as it should be.

Population grow and more of us seek God than ever before.
Should look good to the big guy.

Regards
DL

1. An omnipotent God would have the power to create a perfect reality. So why didn't he?

GIA wrote
He did , you do not recognize it.

2. I don't have a god. If I did, he wouldn't look very much like YHWH.

3. Your definition of perfect must be quite different from mine.

It is closer than you think, it is just that I see it.
Our environment is such that if God were to return today He would have to recognize the Perfection of His systems.

God never introduced imperfection to earth. We still thrive and still search for God.
Things are as they should be or He would change it.

Regards
DL

[Metatron]

It is closer than you think, it is just that I see it.

Why do you see it when others don't?

Our environment is such that if God were to return today He would have to recognize the Perfection of His systems.

Then God is delusional.

God never introduced imperfection to earth.

Then how did imperfection get there?

Things are as they should be or He would change it.

Or he's not here in the first place.