The January 6 "Tourist Event"

[fredonly]

This is a continuation of my conversation with member "1213" on the crimes committed on and before Jan 6 2021, associated with Trump's attempt to steal the election. 1213 referred to the Capitol break-in as a "tourist event".

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to 1213 in post #17]

there was no real attempt to overthrow government

GOOD GRIEF MAN! On Jan. 6th, Trump stood on the podium addressing the crowd who was about to march to the capitol, and he told the crowd,

"Pence did not have the courage to do what needed to be done".

Now, you tell me what Trump had asked Pence to do which Pence did not have the courage to do? What was the job of Pence that day? Well, that would be to certify the election results. So then, Trump asked Pence to forego certifying the election, and Pence refused to do it. Now, let us suppose Pence would have carried out the plan. What do you think would have been the result? We do not know exactly, but what we do know is the fact that it was an attempt to keep Trump in power, and this cannot be denied. So then, while you seem to be under the impression that there was "no real threat to overthrow the government" it is a fact that Trump and others around him were attempting to overthrow the election results, and no one can deny this fact.

Having said all the above, allow me to let it be known that I voted for Trump the first two times, and I have never, ever voted for a democrat, not even for dog catcher, until I voted for Harris this time around, because I clearly understand that Trump, and the Christian nationalists who support him are a clear and present danger to our democracy. To demonstrate this, along with supplying evidence from the "horse's mouth" that Jan. 6th was an attempt to overthrow democracy, here is what Jack Posobiec had to say concerning Jan. 6th. He began his speech by saying,

"Welcome to the end of democracy. We did not get all the way there on Jan. 6th, but we will endeavor to get rid of it, and we will replace it with this" as he held up a cross.

So then, while you seem to be convinced Jan. 6th was not that big of a deal, we have at least one here who is telling us plainly what he believed Jan. 6th was all about.

[1213]

...Now, let us suppose Pence would have carried out the plan. What do you think would have been the result?

There would have been time to check the claims about cheating.

...Trump, and the Christian nationalists who support him are a clear and present danger to our democracy.

Do you mean bureaucracy? It is almost funny how "democrats" say they are for democracy, but didn't even let the people vote their candidate. The hypocrisy is thick with them.

But, I understand the worry about Trump doing something wrong. That is why I think it is important for people to check that he doesn't go against the constitution, like Biden's regime did. And if Trump goes against the constitution, he should be impeached.

[fredonly]

...Now, let us suppose Pence would have carried out the plan. What do you think would have been the result?

There were no claims of fraud that hadn't already been investigated and debunked. Trump was repeating claims of cheating that had been debunked directly to him by the DOJ (2 different AGs), and 2 independent research organizations he had hired. The objective was to create an excuse to deny enough electoral votes that the House could then pick him as the winner. This is part of the conspiracy Trump was indicted for. It's a pity he won't be held accountable for his crimes.

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to 1213 in post #22]

There would have been time to check the claims about cheating.

My friend, this is not how it works. If Trump was a good leader, and he was convinced there was fraud involved, he would have kept this to himself, peacefully turned over power, and then went on to demonstrate the fraud. At that point, a good leader could say, "you see, we did have election fraud, but our great system worked, and it was exposed for all to see". But no! Trump, was attempting to remain in power, and in the meantime, he has caused many folks to lose faith in the process, which is exactly what one would want to do who is attempting to get rid of the process. I am just telling you, the republican party has been overtaken by folks who want to be rid of democracy, because democracy is not allowing them to get what they want, and they have had enough of it.

Moreover, Trump has had 4 years now to demonstrate the "cheating" and he has nothing. There is no way one can imagine that Trump was simply wanting to bide time simply to check to see if there was fraud. The election was in November, and you already had 2 months, and if you did not have the evidence then, you concede the election and then go on to work on exposing the fraud, in order to avoid folks from losing faith in democracy, unless of course your aim is to do just that.

Do you mean bureaucracy?

This demonstrates one who has already lost faith in the process, which again is exactly what they want. However, instead of attempting to fix what you think is wrong with the system, you have lost so much faith you are ready to go along with them. The only reason I voted for Trump in 2016 is because Rubio, Cruise, and the likes of Lindsey Graham were insisting they would never allow Trump to win. I certainly did not expect Trump to win, but he shocked the world, and I had a blast over the next few weeks watching the left melt down, some of whom were claiming they were moving out of the country. But the thing is, even though they were having a meltdown, I do not recall anyone suggesting there was fraud in the system. The funny thing is, Trump certainly did not suggest there was any fraud in 2016, and he is not claiming any fraud now that he has won in 2024. Strange how that works, isn't it? There is fraud if I lose, but everything is AOKAY when I win.

It is almost funny how "democrats" say they are for democracy, but didn't even let the people vote their candidate. The hypocrisy is thick with them.

You are wasting your time now, because I am not defending democrats. All I can tell you is, there has only been one president in my lifetime who has refused to concede an election and is doing all he can do to get his followers to lose faith in the process, and he ain't a democrat. I believe it was Liz Cheney who said, "this country has demonstrated it can survive bad policy (democrats) what it cannot survive are those who want to overturn democracy". I have enough intelligence to know when one is attempting to get rid of democracy.

But, I understand the worry about Trump doing something wrong. That is why I think it is important for people to check that he doesn't go against the constitution, like Biden's regime did. And if Trump goes against the constitution, he should be impeached.

My friend, I don't think you understand. Christians have been attempting to take over this country through what has been called the "culture wars" for over 50 years now, and they are getting their behinds handed to them on a "silver platter". The whole time Christians have been so concerned about the behavior of those outside the Church in the culture, we as a Church have been losing our children to the culture we have been at war with, and yet the Church continues to double down on the culture wars. Well, I am here to tell you Trump is being back by very wealthy self-proclaimed Christian nationalists, and they are tired of not getting what they want, and they are not about to let the Constitution get in the way. The scary thing to me is, I am afraid they may just have the power now to get what they want.

The thing you may need to think about is, the problems we have in our culture may very well lie at the feet of the Church. In other words, if the Church would have concerned herself with those who had been entrusted to her, and made sure these children knew what they believed, and why they believe it, instead of being concerned with the behavior of those outside the Church, then maybe...... just maybe, we would not have a site like this one which is filled with folks who were brought up in the Church, and convinced Christians at one time, who have now left the Church and joined the culture you all are at war with. I am becoming ever more convinced that the problems with our culture is the fault of the Church, and Christians. Said differently, I have seen the enemy, and I am mighty afraid the enemy is US.

[1213]

... he would have kept this to himself, peacefully turned over power, and then went on to demonstrate the fraud. ...

Then it would have been too late. But, you think it is ok to cheat in elections, as long as people go by the manuscript of the political theater?

...I am just telling you, the republican party has been overtaken by folks who want to be rid of democracy,..

That sounds delusional, I don't see any reason to believe that.

This demonstrates one who has already lost faith in the process,

Yes, I have lost faith in humans and that the elections are honest and fair. Even if Trump now won, I don't believe the election system counts the votes as it should.

and he is not claiming any fraud now that he has won in 2024. Strange how that works, isn't it? There is fraud if I lose, but everything is AOKAY when I win.

Isn't that exactly what democrats do? Are you not considered what happened to those about 10 million voters who voted last time Biden but not Harris now?

I think it is ok to speak about fraud, if there are many things that suggests it happened. It would be wrong to just ignore it and let the people be in false belief that they had something to say about the matter.

I am becoming ever more convinced that the problems with our culture is the fault of the Church, and Christians. Said differently, I have seen the enemy, and I am mighty afraid the enemy is US.

And what do you think is the problem, too much truth and love?

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to 1213 in post #0]

Then it would have been too late.

What you are saying makes absolutely no sense. Again, you had 2 months before Jan. 6th to come up with any sort of evidence, but they had none which is why they were attempting to keep Trump in power by not certifying the election. Next, Trump and his team have had 4 years now to demonstrate the fraud and they have nothing, and the court cases which have been thrown out by Trump Judges demonstrate this. Moreover, Mike Lindell, and Giuliani continued to tell us over, and over they had the goods and were just about to bring the evidence forward, and this has never occurred while both of them are broke now. As we move on, Fox news was reporting fraud against Dominion voting machines and Dominion sued Fox and won. So then, it has been 4 years now, and the evidence is in, which demonstrates our elections are the freest, and fairest they have ever been.

Next, if Trump would have somehow demonstrated fraud after the election it would not have been too late in the least. If this had occurred and the democrats were responsible Biden would have certainly been impeached and then removed from office. However, as it stands now, Trump and his team have had 4 years to demonstrate any sort of fraud, and the only thing they have demonstrated is the election process is the freest, and fairest it has ever been. In my lifetime we have had president both Democrat and Republican back and forth and it continues. Why is it the fraud only occurs when the Republican loses?

But, you think it is ok to cheat in elections, as long as people go by the manuscript of the political theater?

No, it is not okay to cheat, but one needs to have the evidence of cheating before claiming fraud. However, Trump and company not only claimed fraud with zero evidence, they also organized Jan. 6th with zero evidence. My friend, Jan. 6th was planned out, and we have leaders of the New Apostolic Reformation telling us with their own mouth that they were involved, and they were on the grounds on Jan. 6th. There is zero evidence of fraud, and actual proof that Trump and company attempted to overthrow the election results, and yet you continue to want to insist there was cheating involved in the election, with no evidence whatsoever.

That sounds delusional, I don't see any reason to believe that.

Of course, you do not see it, because you do not want to. I mean, you believe there was fraud in the election with zero evidence, and the evidence the Rep. party is being taken over by Christian nationalists is overwhelming and you don't see it. Have you heard of the Heritage Foundation? Have you heard of "Project 2025"? Have you heard the speech "Welcome to the end of democracy"? Have you ever heard of Christian Reconstruction? Do you know what Dominion Theology is? Have you ever heard the name R. J. Rushdoony? Do you know what the "Seven Mountains Mandate" is? Do you know what theonomy is? Have you heard of theocracy? GOOD GRIEF! These folks are saying the quiet parts out loud, and you don't see it? My friend, "The New Apostolic Reformation" was responsible for gathering the crowd on Jan. 6th, and they tell you as much. Who is it that came up with the "Seven Mountains Mandate"? You guessed it, "The New Apostolic Reformation".

Yes, I have lost faith in humans and that the elections are honest and fair.

Which is exactly what folks want you to do so that you will be ready to be rid of democracy. Meanwhile, the evidence demonstrates overwhelmingly that there was no election fraud, and our elections are safe, free, and fair.

Even if Trump now won, I don't believe the election system counts the votes as it should.

What is your evidence for the belief? If what you are saying is true, then you will have to agree that Harris has every right to forego certifying the election results, in order to remain in power until she can demonstrate this, correct? So, the elections are not fair, but as long as your candidate wins it is okay, but it they lose this is when we cry fraud? I mean if you really believe this then why not stand up and cry fraud on the behalf of Harris? My friend, Harris lost the election, and she has conceded the election, because she knows our elections are free, and fair.

I think it is ok to speak about fraud, if there are many things that suggests it happened.

It is absolutely okay to speak about fraud, but one needs to demonstrate fraud before they make the accusations, because such accusations can get people killed. The secretary of state in Georgia was getting death threats, and he is standing by the results. Since you say there were many things which suggested fraud, it should be easy to share some with us, along with the facts and evidence in support. Maybe you can come up with something the Trump appointed judges will not throw out?

Isn't that exactly what democrats do?

In my lifetime, I have only witnessed one presidential candidate who refused to concede an election, who went on to claim fraud, and asked the VP to forego the certification of the election, and he was not a democrat.

Are you not considered what happened to those about 10 million voters who voted last time Biden but not Harris now?

Have you ever considered the fact that they may not want to vote for Harris, and they certainly were not going to vote for Trump and so they stayed home? It is certainly fine to ask the question, but let us not suppose this is any indication of voter fraud, until, or unless it has been demonstrated.

And what do you think is the problem, too much truth and love?

I explained the problem, and the problem is the Church has involved herself in the culture war which we were never called to fight, as our Churches empty out, while we are losing our children to the culture we are at war with, and yet we continue to double down on the culture wars. The definition of insanity comes to mind. I believe it was the Apostle Paul who said, "what business is it of mine to judge those who are outside"? The Church has not been empowered to take over the political system in order to make this a Christian nation. Rather, the Church has been empowered with the Gospel which is the power of God unto salvation. Of course, when we lose faith in the power of the Gospel to do what it says it will do, we will invent our own means, and we will lose, which is occurring before our very eyes, but I guess you do not see this either?

Yeah! The Church is showing too much truth as we continue to insist upon election fraud with zero evidence, and we are showing great love as we attempt to legislate our morality upon the whole of the nation, whether they like it or not. Good stuff!

[1213]

...Do you know what Dominion Theology is? ...

It must be about that we must have faith in the dominion voting machines.

Which is exactly what folks want you to do so that you will be ready to be rid of democracy. Meanwhile, the evidence demonstrates overwhelmingly that there was no election fraud, and our elections are safe, free, and fair.

How do you know they are safe, free and fair, when there is no way to really check that? The reason why I speak this is that I am not ready to be rid of democracy, like it seems "democrats" have done.

What is your evidence for the belief?

Biggest evidence for me is that many of the problems were fast ignored. It is much harder to prove any crime after many years.

Since you say there were many things which suggested fraud, it should be easy to share some with us, along with the facts and evidence in support. Maybe you can come up with something the Trump appointed judges will not throw out?

By what I see, there is no fair justice in America anymore. I believe they would throw out anything that doesn't fit to their ideas. So, to me it really is not very useful argument.

But, the evidence suggesting the fraud:
- it is done so that it is easy to cheat, without getting caught. No way to check was there cheating. (For example when no ID required, media is paid to support the illusion, most of the politicians benefit from the illusion).
- There is no sings that Biden is as popular as the votes would suggest.
- The "fortifying the election", not suspicious at all why they failed this time. "a well-funded cabal of powerful people, ranging across industries and ideologies, working together behind the scenes to influence perceptions, change rules and laws, steer media coverage and control the flow of information. They were not rigging the election; they were fortifying it. "
https://time.com/magazine/us/5936018/fe ... -no-5-u-s/ Apparently the "cabal" wanted "Hitler" to be the president this time. We can only wonder why so.
- The way how claims about fraud were not taken seriously. (This doesn't mean they must be believed, they should be investigated properly).
- one sided reporting.
- Michigan has 500,000 more registered voters than people eligible to vote - experts say there is no reason to believe that widespread fraud will result Yeah, sure.
https://apnews.com/article/michigan-vot ... a7e4ea7251

There are many claims about problems in the elections. But, the main problem is, it is not possible to check in any way was there a fraud and that is the biggest evidence for me that there is.

I explained the problem, and the problem is the Church has involved herself in the culture war which we were never called to fight,

Really, by what I see, the opposition has called Christians to fight, or surrender and renounce their beliefs and way of life.

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to 1213 in post #27]

It must be about that we must have faith in the dominion voting machines.

I can tell you this, FOX news must certainly believe the dominion voting machines are safe and fair, because they tucked their tail and ran when they were being sued for the claims they were making. You know, and I know, and we all know, if there was something wrong with the machines, FOX would have pushed it to the end, and they would not have agreed to pay 750 million dollars. Moreover, you know that if there was any sort of problems with these machines, the republicans would not rest until it was brought out into the light. Next, we continue to have both republicans, and democrats win, back and forth. All of this demonstrates the machines have been investigated and the machines have been demonstrated to be fair. Some folks are simply too far gone. It is absolutely baffling to me how folks can be so convinced of these conspiracies, with absolutely no evidence.

How do you know they are safe, free and fair, when there is no way to really check that?

GOOD GRIEF! Trump and company were claiming fraud, and took the cases to court, some of the judges were Trump appointed, and every one of the cases were thrown out for lack of evidence, or they were dropped by Trump. Moreover, you had these folks going around the country on tours continuing to claim election fraud, and claiming they had all this evidence which they never shared. I assure you that if they had anything at all they would have exposed it. I mean, look at what happened in Georgia. The governor was republican, and so was the secretary of state, and he was being pressured to find more votes for Trump, and he and his family received death threats. Do you see what I am talking about? These sorts of conspiracies endanger the lives of folks, and the thing is, there was nothing the secretary of state could do, if he knows the votes were counted accurately. Next, there were other republicans who were claiming fraud, and they have shut up now. You know, and I know, the only way these folks would shut up, is if they know there is nothing there. All of this should be telling you that the idea of fraud has been investigated thoroughly, and there was nothing to be found. If all this does not convince you then you are too far gone, and simply choose to believe what you would rather believe. But the main thing is, as a Christian, if you cannot demonstrate the fraud, then you need to keep your opinions to yourself, because this sort of things gets folks killed, and I certainly would not want to be responsible for such a thing.

The reason why I speak this is that I am not ready to be rid of democracy, like it seems "democrats" have done.

I am not saying it is you who wants to be rid of democracy, but you are going along with those who have demonstrated they are a danger to democracy. You keep bringing in the democrats, when the democrats have nothing to do with the actual proof that Trump and company attempted to overthrow the election results. You need to do the investigation, because it is a fact that Jan. 6th was planned out, and one of the things which demonstrates this is the fact that Pence was asked to forego the certification. The fact of the matter is this whole thing goes all the way back to the 1960s with a man named Rushdoony. This morphed into organizations such as The Moral Majority, Christian Coalition, Focus on the Family, and the like, who joined the republican party in hopes of Christians taking over the country for God through politics. This has not occurred, and the Christians are losing, and we are losing badly, and they have had enough of democracy. Do you know the president of the Heritage Foundation had this to say,

"We are in the process of the second American Revolution, which will remain bloodless if the left allows it to be"

My friend, that is scary stuff, and he is saying it out loud. Does the above sound like one who is talking about working through the democratic process? Or one who is talking about taking over? Or how about this one. Jack Posobiec told the crowd at CPAC

"Welcome to the end of democracy. We are here to overthrow it completely. We didn’t get all the way there on Jan. 6, but we will endeavor to get rid of it."

Here is a guy who is not only telling you they want to be rid of democracy, but he is also telling you what Jan, 6th was about, and he is telling you plainly that Jan. 6th was about the overthrow of democracy. It should be plain as the nose on your face that the republican party is being taken over by Christian nationalists who want to make this a Christian nation, and in order to accomplish this the Constitution has to be ignored, because the authors of the Constitution ensured the federal government could not be involved in religious affairs.

Can you not see that the goal of Christian nationalists would be to cause folks to lose faith in democracy? That is what Christian Reconstruction was all about. Christian Reconstruction looks forward to the collapse of society in order for Christians to rebuild it, and these folks have had enough, and they are attempting to hurry the collapse and one of the ways to do so is to get folks to lose faith in the process.

Biggest evidence for me is that many of the problems were fast ignored. It is much harder to prove any crime after many years.

Then this demonstrates you have no evidence because what you say is simply false. Again, Trump and company brought their cases to court, and they were either thrown out for lack of evidence, or Trump and company dropped the cases for lack of evidence.

By what I see, there is no fair justice in America anymore.

Right! What you do not seem to be seeing is this is exactly what these folks would want you to believe, in order for you to go along with getting rid of the system.

I believe they would throw out anything that doesn't fit to their ideas.

You mean like, attempting to overthrow the election results if you do not like the outcome?

So, to me it really is not very useful argument.

Sort of like saying, "my mind is already made up so don't confuse me with the facts".

I am leaving your list alone, some of which were already addressed, and the rest are simply conspiracies, and move on to the end.

Really, by what I see, the opposition has called Christians to fight, or surrender and renounce their beliefs and way of life.

No one is calling Christians to fight, surrender, or renounce your beliefs or way of life. As a Christian, you are free in this country to live and worship as you wish. What you are not free to do is to attempt to use the government in order to enforce what you believe upon others. It is statements like the above which cause Christians to get a bad name, because Christians are not being called to fight, we are not being told to surrender, and we are not being asked to renounce our beliefs.

[1213]

I can tell you this, FOX news must certainly believe the dominion voting machines are safe and fair, because they tucked their tail and ran when they were being sued for the claims they were making. You know, and I know, and we all know, if there was something wrong with the machines, FOX would have pushed it to the end, and they would not have agreed to pay 750 million dollars. Moreover, you know that if there was any sort of problems with these machines, the republicans would not rest until it was brought out into the light.

If many influential Republican benefit also from the machines, they will not do anything about the possible problems with them. And even if Fox failed actually and not just because they had to surrender, it doesn't mean the machines are trustworthy. Any computer machine can be made to do wrong things.

GOOD GRIEF! Trump and company were claiming fraud, and took the cases to court, some of the judges were Trump appointed, and every one of the cases were thrown out for lack of evidence, or they were dropped by Trump.

Could you give one example of a such case?

I am not saying it is you who wants to be rid of democracy, but you are going along with those who have demonstrated they are a danger to democracy.

I think the only ones that are danger for democracy, and especially to the freedom of speech, are "democrats".

Trump and company attempted to overthrow the election results.

I don't think that is true. they wanted to make sure the votes are counted correctly.

Here is a guy who is not only telling you they want to be rid of democracy, but he is also telling you what Jan, 6th was about, and he is telling you plainly that Jan. 6th was about the overthrow of democracy.

By the way, isn't U.S. a republic, not democracy, officially?
Wikipedia says:
"Federal presidential republic"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

I think that is much better than democracy, because democracy can be more easily to used to oppress people.

Can you not see that the goal of Christian nationalists would be to cause folks to lose faith in democracy?

Sorry, that still looks like delusional conspiracy theory.

No one is calling Christians to fight, surrender, or renounce your beliefs or way of life. As a Christian, you are free in this country to live and worship as you wish. What you are not free to do is to attempt to use the government in order to enforce what you believe upon others. It is statements like the above which cause Christians to get a bad name, because Christians are not being called to fight, we are not being told to surrender, and we are not being asked to renounce our beliefs.

Not being to called to fight is the same as to be called to surrender to the fascism "liberals" try to enforce. If the so called liberals have the right to impose their ideas to everyone, so should also Christians have. I don't think Christians should physically fight, but leaving politics only for others would be bad.

For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world's rulers of the darkness of this age, and against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Eph. 6:12

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to 1213 in post #29]

If many influential Republican benefit also from the machines, they will not do anything about the possible problems with them. And even if Fox failed actually and not just because they had to surrender, it doesn't mean the machines are trustworthy. Any computer machine can be made to do wrong things.

All you are doing here is to demonstrate your mind is already made up and the facts and evidence does not matter. Again, you know, I know, and everyone else knows that if there was a problem with the machines, folks would not stop until they were exposed, and the fact is, FOX made accusations, Dominion called their bluff, and FOX had to pay dearly. Now why in the world would Dominion call the bluff? Well, that would be because those in the company would know if there was any sort of fraud with the machines, and therefore were confident they would win the case. Next, it does not take a whole lot of thinking to understand that Dominion had every reason to ensure the machines worked properly, because they would want to continue supplying the machines. The problem is you continue to tell us what you think with no supporting facts and evidence, and the fact that Dominion won the case against FOX is mighty strong evidence the machines are legit.

Could you give one example of a such case?

https://www.politifact.com/article/2020 ... suits-her/

Here is an example of dozens of cases, and if you will notice the article was authored Dec. 10th 2020, which means before Jan. 6th dozens of cases were brought forth and thrown out, which demonstrates your idea that the evidence was ignored is just a conspiracy.

I think the only ones that are danger for democracy, and especially to the freedom of speech, are "democrats".

Here again, you are simply telling us what you think, with no evidence to back it up. What you seem to fail to realize is that I am not defending the democrats. I am not a democrat. What I know for a fact is, Trump and company attempted to overthrow the election results. I know for a fact that the republican party has members and backing by self-proclaimed Christian nationalists. I know that Christian nationalists want the government to declare this to be a Christian nation, and I know this would go against the Constitution. The danger the democrats may pose, has nothing whatsoever to do with these things. I continue to tell you with facts and evidence what the republicans have done, and you continue to bring in the democrats, and one would have nothing to do with the other.

I don't think that is true. they wanted to make sure the votes are counted correctly.

I do not understand what you are not getting here? Trump had 2 months to demonstrate any fraud, and he and those around them attempted to do just that. They filed dozens of cases before Jan. 6th and all of them were thrown out, some by republican judges. Okay, after Trump leaves office, we have had 4 years for anyone to demonstrate election fraud, and although there have been those who dedicated themselves to the effort, they have demonstrated no fraud, while they have drained their bank accounts attempting to do it. Dominion sues FOX and wins easily. How could anyone possibly believe that Jan. 6th was about wanting to be sure the votes were counted?

My friend, a good leader who wants the system to stay in place, would never, ever allow a Jan. 6th to occur. Rather, for the good of the nation, they concede the election in order to prevent folks from losing faith in the process. Then, after the election, they go to work attempting to expose the fraud, and when and if they discover there was no fraud, they announce this to the nation. If fraud is found, then this good leader can announce that fraud was indeed found, but our great system worked, and those responsible will pay. Now, what would one do who does not care about the system? Oh? That's right! They would go on to attempt to convince the nation the election was rigged with no evidence whatsoever, and cause half of the nation to lose faith in the process.

By the way, isn't U.S. a republic, not democracy, officially?

GOOD GRIEF! We all know this, but we vote democratically, and when one says someone is a danger to democracy, they are talking about our ability to vote for candidates of our choice.

Sorry, that still looks like delusional conspiracy theory.

Oh really? I supply you with a quote from the president of the Heritage Foundation which is telling us that what they are about to do will "remain bloodless as long as the left allows it", along with a quote from another which welcomes us to the end of democracy, going on to tell us that "we will replace it with this" as he holds up a cross, going on to tell us that Jan. 6th was an attempt to end democracy, and you say it is a "delusional conspiracy theory?" Do you think they really did not mean it? I mean, what do you think a Christian nationalist is? It is one who wants the government to declare this a Christian nation, and to rule the nation in such a way. This cannot be done with the Constitution we now have. My friend, the speaker of the house, Mike Johnson is a card-carrying, self-proclaimed Christian nationalist, and he is not alone, and the fact that a Christian nationalist was elected speaker should tell you this. I mean, I am giving you facts and evidence for what I am saying, and you call it a "conspiracy" while on the other hand, you believe things with zero facts and evidence and are under the impression that what you believe is not a conspiracy. Seriously! The election fraud claims were investigated thoroughly, and we do not simply find out that there was no fraud, what we actually discover is that our elections are the safest they have ever been, and yet you claim to believe there was fraud, with zero evidence. We have actual proof, and know beyond doubt that Trump attempted to overthrow the election results, and you claim it is a conspiracy.

Not being to called to fight is the same as to be called to surrender to the fascism "liberals" try to enforce.

This is too, too funny! I mean, if the liberals are asking Christians to fight, then this is a sign they want to be rid of Christians. However, if they are not asking Christians to fight, this is a sign the liberals are wanting Christians to surrender.

If the so called liberals have the right to impose their ideas to everyone, so should also Christians have.

I hope we can all agree that no one has a right to impose what they believe upon others. If the liberals are imposing what they believe upon us, how would it make it right for the Christian to impose what they believe upon others when we agree that no one has the right to do this? I would hope it would be Christians leading the way in demonstrating how we can all get along and live in the same nation. In other words, Christians should be operating out of love for neighbor, as opposed to standing up for Christian rights.

I don't think Christians should physically fight, but leaving politics only for others would be bad.

My friend, no one is suggesting that Christians leave politics for others. In fact, if I had to guess, the overwhelming majority of elected officials in our nation identify as Christian. How in the world is this leaving politics to others?

For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world's rulers of the darkness of this age, and against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

It is mighty funny how you extract this verse out of its context. When we read it in the context, what we see is that Paul is not at all talking about being on the offense. Rather, the "armor of God" along with the rest of what Paul says are for defense. In other words, Paul is not talking about we as Christians going out to fight these forces, but rather taking the measures to stand in the midst of the attacks, and these attacks are not said to be by those who have flesh and blood, and yet Christians are struggling against flesh and blood. We should be serving those with flesh and blood, and struggling against the spiritual attacks.