“The Devil made me do it� is a well-known phrase that people often associate with movies and courtrooms. The idea that Satan (the Devil, Lucifer, etc.) somehow has the power to possess people, and direct or persuade them to act against their own will and against the will of God.
The contention here is: it’s not made especially clear in the Bible what powers Satan possesses. To then ascribe him powers of directing people to evil acts, and of being constantly on the lookout for ways to ‘turn’ people away from God suggests a near-omnipotent, omniscient entity. Yet, the few details about him that we can glean from the Bible don’t seem to support that picture.
Therefore, are those who fear Satan being irrational, as they cannot know with certainty whether he possesses enough power to harm them?
I can easily predict the non-theist’s answer, but am genuinely curious to hear theist arguments for or against. Hence posting in this forum rather than C&A to hopefully reach more Christian views and learn from them.
Is a fear of Satan irrational?
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William
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Re: Is a fear of Satan irrational?
Post #21[Replying to post 17]
William:Checkpoint.
Please quote me in context, before giving a comment.
Thanks.
William:Checkpoint.
Please quote me in context, before giving a comment.
Thanks.
Re: Is a fear of Satan irrational?
Post #22[Replying to post 15 by William]
[quote[Is the way to deal with such fear, to assume the being does not actually exist? [/quote] I suppose that depends on the person asked and their relationship to what you think is fearful
Maybe I said that wrong. Satan seems to be taught to be something that he's not in modern Christianity it seems. If (which is appears) he was trying to bring truth to humanity, then there's no need to think of him as evil.In what way do you think Satan is misunderstood?
Yes and no. Maybe be fearful of, but not simply fear.Is it right to fear any being which could harm you?
[quote[Is the way to deal with such fear, to assume the being does not actually exist? [/quote] I suppose that depends on the person asked and their relationship to what you think is fearful
Because ideas can be dangerous without having any proofWhy - as simply an idea - should the idea of Satan be feared?
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Diagoras
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Post #23
From the verses people have already quoted, plus others I’ve checked out, there doesn’t seem to be an awful lot of consistent detail about Satan. For example, in this thread there has been a claim that he “watches us closely�, but another that he’s definitely not omniscient. On the one hand, he “can’t destroy a person�, yet on the other, I’m told he provoked disaster to kill Job’s children. While he represents darkness and is “a defeated foe�, he’s also “very real and powerful at this time�. Apparently, Jesus defeated him (from Luke 4), but in verse 13, the Devil only “departed for a season�.
More generally, he’s described as “the Prince of the Power of the Air� and “ruler of this world�. This suggests to me more a case of tyrannophobia than anything else. It would be natural for the ‘oppressed minority’ to fear their rulers, so perhaps this particular depiction of the Devil came from that.
Interesting that he’s also conjectured to simply be an aspect (“the dark side�) of God, or representing self-doubt. This does go against the Catholic catechism though, who asserts he’s real and not divine.
There’s also the point to note that some of Satan’s names, e.g. Lucifer, seem to have come about when describing a particular (human) enemy, which then became exaggerated into some kind of ‘all-evil’ adversary.
Aside from a reasonably rational (although ignorant) fear of ‘devils’ inside people being the cause of disease, are there instances in the Bible which definitely show The Devil (not his minions) as truly powerful enough to cause fear?
There’s much talk of not needing to fear him, as long as you trust in God. However, it’s a fact that many people who consider themselves Christian do fear him very much. There are message boards full of anxious people convinced that the Devil is either in them or controlling them in some way. Are they being irrational?
More generally, he’s described as “the Prince of the Power of the Air� and “ruler of this world�. This suggests to me more a case of tyrannophobia than anything else. It would be natural for the ‘oppressed minority’ to fear their rulers, so perhaps this particular depiction of the Devil came from that.
Interesting that he’s also conjectured to simply be an aspect (“the dark side�) of God, or representing self-doubt. This does go against the Catholic catechism though, who asserts he’s real and not divine.
There’s also the point to note that some of Satan’s names, e.g. Lucifer, seem to have come about when describing a particular (human) enemy, which then became exaggerated into some kind of ‘all-evil’ adversary.
Aside from a reasonably rational (although ignorant) fear of ‘devils’ inside people being the cause of disease, are there instances in the Bible which definitely show The Devil (not his minions) as truly powerful enough to cause fear?
There’s much talk of not needing to fear him, as long as you trust in God. However, it’s a fact that many people who consider themselves Christian do fear him very much. There are message boards full of anxious people convinced that the Devil is either in them or controlling them in some way. Are they being irrational?
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brianbbs67
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Post #24
In Job, Ha'Satan, the high Adversary is before the court of heaven. Seems as if he belonged there. HE is the one set to oppose us. Seems he's good at his assignment. i don't believe he has any power over us that we don't freely give. Intentionaly or Unintentionaly. "Resist satan and he will flee from you"
All that said, I don't intentionally drive into tornados or hurricanes if another choice is available
All that said, I don't intentionally drive into tornados or hurricanes if another choice is available
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JehovahsWitness
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Post #25
Diagoras wrote:
There’s much talk of not needing to fear him, as long as you trust in God. However, it’s a fact that many people who consider themselves Christian do fear him very much. There are message boards full of anxious people convinced that the Devil is either in them or controlling them in some way. Are they being irrational?
Yes. But that's why Jesus sent us out to teach people bible truths. It's to set them free, free from a fear of death when death is nothjng but a temporary "sleep" from which we will be awakened in paradise. Free from a fear of a hell that doesn't even exist and free from a fear of demons that cannot harm us I if we come under Jehovahs protection.
" And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.� - Jesus Christ
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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William
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Re: Is a fear of Satan irrational?
Post #26[Replying to post 22]
William: In what way do you think Satan is misunderstood?
Menotu: Maybe I said that wrong. Satan seems to be taught to be something that he's not in modern Christianity it seems. If (which is appears) he was trying to bring truth to humanity, then there's no need to think of him as evil.
William: What truth do you think Satan was trying to bring to Humanity, and what prevented this from occurring?
Menotu: Because ideas can be dangerous without having any proof
William: In what way is the belief that Satan exists, and needs to be feared, a dangerous idea?
William: In what way do you think Satan is misunderstood?
Menotu: Maybe I said that wrong. Satan seems to be taught to be something that he's not in modern Christianity it seems. If (which is appears) he was trying to bring truth to humanity, then there's no need to think of him as evil.
William: What truth do you think Satan was trying to bring to Humanity, and what prevented this from occurring?
- Why - as simply an idea - should the idea of Satan be feared?
Menotu: Because ideas can be dangerous without having any proof
William: In what way is the belief that Satan exists, and needs to be feared, a dangerous idea?
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William
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Post #27
[Replying to post 23 ]
Diagoras: There’s much talk of not needing to fear him, as long as you trust in God. However, it’s a fact that many people who consider themselves Christian do fear him very much. There are message boards full of anxious people convinced that the Devil is either in them or controlling them in some way. Are they being irrational?
William: I suppose if one allows ones thoughts to go a certain way, it could be seen by an observer as to appear irrational.
As is pointed out, some counter those thoughts from taking root by believing that their idea of God will protect them from any harm Satan can do to them.
Biblically speaking, the irony - as already pointed out - is that the same entity enacts the 'good' and the 'evil' onto humans, which in itself signifies that the entity is involved in some kind of play which requires humans adhere to it, one way or the other.
Christianity generally sought to completely separate the two aspects of The Creator by having them appear to be two totally different beings at war with each other, thus deflecting facing the implication that we might be dealing with some kind of Creator Entity who had major self image issues.
The Accuser is still completely visible within the Christian message, and he is generally known as "The Christ", although mostly referred to as "Jesus".
Diagoras: There’s much talk of not needing to fear him, as long as you trust in God. However, it’s a fact that many people who consider themselves Christian do fear him very much. There are message boards full of anxious people convinced that the Devil is either in them or controlling them in some way. Are they being irrational?
William: I suppose if one allows ones thoughts to go a certain way, it could be seen by an observer as to appear irrational.
As is pointed out, some counter those thoughts from taking root by believing that their idea of God will protect them from any harm Satan can do to them.
Biblically speaking, the irony - as already pointed out - is that the same entity enacts the 'good' and the 'evil' onto humans, which in itself signifies that the entity is involved in some kind of play which requires humans adhere to it, one way or the other.
Christianity generally sought to completely separate the two aspects of The Creator by having them appear to be two totally different beings at war with each other, thus deflecting facing the implication that we might be dealing with some kind of Creator Entity who had major self image issues.
The Accuser is still completely visible within the Christian message, and he is generally known as "The Christ", although mostly referred to as "Jesus".
Re: Is a fear of Satan irrational?
Post #28[Replying to post 26 by William]
1) There are two potential answers: a) truth about God and what God's hiding &/or b) bringing us closer to the natural world (depending on which belief you follow; the biblical satan or the one many worship)
1) The spreading of fear about him (lies?)
2) If the idea that he's evil and a deceiver is true, that is something that people should be fearful of
William:
1) What truth do you think Satan was trying to bring to Humanity, and 1a)what prevented this from occurring?
2) Why - as simply an idea - should the idea of Satan be feared?
1) There are two potential answers: a) truth about God and what God's hiding &/or b) bringing us closer to the natural world (depending on which belief you follow; the biblical satan or the one many worship)
1) The spreading of fear about him (lies?)
2) If the idea that he's evil and a deceiver is true, that is something that people should be fearful of
See #2 aboveIn what way is the belief that Satan exists, and needs to be feared, a dangerous idea?
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Checkpoint
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Re: Is a fear of Satan irrational?
Post #29What do you understand is the difference between "the biblical satan" and "the one many worship"?Menotu wrote: [Replying to post 26 by William]
William:
1) What truth do you think Satan was trying to bring to Humanity, and 1a)what prevented this from occurring?
2) Why - as simply an idea - should the idea of Satan be feared?
1) There are two potential answers: a) truth about God and what God's hiding &/or b) bringing us closer to the natural world (depending on which belief you follow; the biblical satan or the one many worship)
1) The spreading of fear about him (lies?)
2) If the idea that he's evil and a deceiver is true, that is something that people should be fearful of
See #2 aboveIn what way is the belief that Satan exists, and needs to be feared, a dangerous idea?
Surely, if an idea is true, it is no longer just an idea, but in fact some form of reality.
Re: Is a fear of Satan irrational?
Post #30We all know the biblical satan.Checkpoint wrote:What do you understand is the difference between "the biblical satan" and "the one many worship"?Menotu wrote: [Replying to post 26 by William]
William:
1) What truth do you think Satan was trying to bring to Humanity, and 1a)what prevented this from occurring?
2) Why - as simply an idea - should the idea of Satan be feared?
1) There are two potential answers: a) truth about God and what God's hiding &/or b) bringing us closer to the natural world (depending on which belief you follow; the biblical satan or the one many worship)
1) The spreading of fear about him (lies?)
2) If the idea that he's evil and a deceiver is true, that is something that people should be fearful of
See #2 aboveIn what way is the belief that Satan exists, and needs to be feared, a dangerous idea?
But there are people that worship satan saying he's not what the bible indicates (quite the opposite) from what I've seen personally. Rather or not they're right is independent of the fact that there seems to be, at least, 2 versions of satan
Reality is skewed many times when it comes to belief so I suppose it depends on who you ask.Surely, if an idea is true, it is no longer just an idea, but in fact some form of reality.
