Clear declaration of Jesus as God

[Wootah]

Titus 2:11-14 English Standard Version (ESV)
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Line 13. Anyone want to explain this away?

[PinSeeker]

The scripture in question (TITUS 2:13) does not refer to God being manifest , it speaks abou us awaiting ...

TITUS 2:13

...the appearing of the glory of our great God ....

It is a question of THE GLORY of God appearing/being manifest, not God appearing.

This much is absolutely correct. As I said, the Man Jesus is God's Shekinah Glory, the visible manifestation of God's Himself.

Grace and peace to you, JW.

[Eloi]

[Replying to PinSeeker]

Depending on what we mean with "glory", then we need to specify ... The word "glory" can have diferent meanings depending on the context. I can think in these three:

1) a reason to be proud or to make proud the represented thing/person (as JW said);

2) the splendor/radiance behing a vision or the power behind the actions/presence (John 17:5) ;

3) the high "quality" of something/someone that makes it specially distinguished (John 1:14) ;

While Jesus was a man he showed the glory of his Father because of his qualities as person, but he didn't shine with the exception of the transfiguration event (Matt. 17:2; John 2:11) ...

When Jesus will come to judge, people may see the glory he owns by the powerfull efects of his invisible actions or maybe people will see his splendor literally, that is totally possible ... We can not try to make seem that a word means something when it is not what it means in the specific context ...

[onewithhim]

Titus 2:11-14 English Standard Version (ESV)
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Line 13. Anyone want to explain this away?

"Explain this away?" I can explain it, easily. Many versions read thusly: "...the appearing of our great God AND our Savior Jesus Christ." The phrase speaks of TWO individuals---God, who is the Father (Jehovah), AND our Savior Jesus Christ. Remember, all glory was God's. Everything Jesus did was for his Father's glory. So to say that "the appearing of the glory of our great God" was entirely in line with what Jesus did for his Father's will to be done, and for his Father's glory. Finally the Father---God---will be glorified to the ultimate degree, something that Jesus wanted very much and something Jesus will exult in when the final day comes. Jesus aided in the accomplishment of his Father's glory and vindication, and he is still working toward that end. Everything he did and everything he now does is for his Father's exaltation in the eyes of mankind and for his Father's name to be cleared once and for all of all the terrible things men have accused Him of.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

So do you expect the Father to appear in the second coming?

The Scriptures refer to this. (I feel that anything that takes place according to Jehovah's decree involves Him "coming" in cadence with His Son.)

God speaks of himself as "coming" to execute judgment:

"Look! Jehovah is coming from his place to call the inhabitants of the land to account for their error, and the land will expose her bloodshed and will no longer cover over her slain." (Isaiah 26:21)

Malachi 3:1-6 speaks of a joint coming for judgment on the part of Jehovah and his "messenger of the covenant."

"'Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will clear up a way before me. And suddenly the true Lord, whom you are seeking [Jehovah], will come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant [Jesus Christ] will come, in whom I take delight. Look! He will certainly come,' says Jehovah of armies." (vs. 1)

"'I will come near to you for judgment, and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who take false oaths, against those who defraud the hired worker, the widow, and the fatherless child, and against those who refuse to help the foreigner. These have not feared me,' says Jehovah of armies." (vs.5)

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

So do you expect the Father to appear in the second coming?

Are you suggesting there is a scripture in the bible that says Father will appear in the second coming? Titus says "the glory of our great God" can be expected to be made manifest, but not that humans will literally see the person of God.

In your opinion then, what do you expect humans to see?

How does seeing the "the glory of our great God" differ from seeing "the person of God?"


Tcg

Humans will "see" in that they will clearly understand.

God has always said that "no man may see me and live." So when men "see" God or Jesus, they "see" with eyes of understanding. We can see this as we read the following words of Jesus:

"And the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled in their case. It says: 'You will indeed hear but by no means get the sense of it, and you will indeed LOOK, BUT BY NO MEANS SEE. For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have SHUT THEIR EYES so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back and I heal them." (Matthew 13:14,15)

"Do you not yet SEE the point?..." (Matthew 16:9)

"Those of the Pharisees who were with him heard these things, and they said to him: 'We are not blind also, are we?' Jesus said to them: 'If you were blind, you would have no sin. But now you say, '"We see." Your sin remains.'" (John 9:40,41)


I don't think anyone would say that Jesus wasn't talking about getting the sense of something, or understanding something. I think we would agree that he was not speaking about actual sight, as one might see a tree in front of him. Therefore, when all "eyes shall 'see' him," they will understand the truth about Jesus and why he is coming back.

[tam]

[Replying to post 25 by onewithhim]

I don't think anyone would say that Jesus wasn't talking about getting the sense of something, or understanding something. I think we would agree that he was not speaking about actual sight, as one might see a tree in front of him. Therefore, when all "eyes shall 'see' him," they will understand the truth about Jesus and why he is coming back.

Well, I am one who would say that my Lord (Jaheshua) was talking about people actually seeing Him. Not because what I say matters - but because that is what He said and teaches; and what He says is true.



We can look at the language to make this a bit easier to see (no pun intended). The word used here at "every eye will see him" is optanomai, and the word used in your examples from John and Matthew for seeing (as in discerning) is blepo (which can also be used to literally see), and the word used in your example at Matthew 16:9 for understanding is noeo.

Optanomai

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 3700&t=KJV


As well as reading the definition on that link, you can scan down and see all the verses where this word is used. Such as Matthew 17:3 (I bolded the word being used from optanomai):

And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.


And Matthew 28:7

Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you."



This is not see as in 'perceive/understand'. This is see as in an actual appearance. Literal seeing with the eye.



Blepo can be used as literal sight, but it also means discernment, and you can again scan down for examples (your example above from John and Matthew above use this word 'blepo'):

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... G991&t=KJV




Matthew 16:9 (which you also used above in your example) is another word entirely: noeo, and means understand, perceive, think.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 3539&t=KJV




But "every eye will see Him" uses the word optanomai. To literally appear; to literally see, look at, behold.





Peace again to you,
- a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 1 by Wootah]

If there were a clear declaration of Jesus as God, this thread would not be necessary. But, here it is.


Tcg

[Eloi]

[Replying to Tcg]

Not necessarily ... There are a lot of clear declarations of Jesus indicating that he is not God and still a lot of people don't mind and want to prove the contrary. They may be thinking they are more Christians than Jesus.

[Tcg]

[Replying to Tcg]

Not necessarily ... There are a lot of clear declarations of Jesus indicating that he is not God and still a lot of people don't mind and want to prove the contrary. They may be thinking they are more Christians than Jesus.

If there were one clear declaration of Jesus indicating that he isn't God, this thread would come to a screeching halt. It would be presented and the argument would end.

The reality of course is that the Bible doesn't resolve this quandary. Even with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Christians can't reach an agreement. One would think this is an issue God would want to be clear. Instead we find endless arguments amongst those who claim to know the truth.


Tcg

[Eloi]

[Replying to Tcg]

You can see one of them right here:

John 20:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’�