Didn't Joseph and Mary have 7 children?

[polonius]

In the Bible we read that Mary and Joseph had seven children. Why is Mary referred to as "ever virgin."

NRSV Matthew 1:25

"He had no relations with her until she bore a son,* and he named him Jesus."

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 18 by PinSeeker]

In Matthew 1, we read of the visitation of an angel of the Lord upon Joseph before he was married and before Jesus was born. Afterwards:


"Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."


He kept her a virgin until Jesus was born; the direct inference is that sometime fairly soon after the birth of Jesus, Joseph consummated his marriage to Mary by... Well, you know. At that point, Mary had a good 20 to 25, maybe even 30 years before she would become what we might regard today as a high-risk pregnancy.

That is an erroneous interpretation and therefore based on speculation only.

Absolutely not. It makes very good sense that Matthew writes this, because Matthew's Gospel is the most Jewish of the four. Joseph and Mary would have been flouting Jewish custom and more importantly God's Law were they not to "be fruitful and multiply." Thus Matthew's very intentional inference. Joseph and Mary were fruitful. Joseph and Mary multiplied. They had many children, and, presumably, girls included.

Grace and peace to you, RR.

[RightReason]

[Replying to PinSeeker]

Absolutely not. It makes very good sense that Matthew writes this, because Matthew's Gospel is the most Jewish of the four. Joseph and Mary would have been flouting Jewish custom and more importantly God's Law were they not to "be fruitful and multiply." Thus Matthew's very intentional inference. Joseph and Mary were fruitful. Joseph and Mary multiplied. They had many children, and, presumably, girls included.

God does not demand everyone engage in sexual intercourse and have children. There are many then and many now who devote themselves fully to God forgoing all sexual activity. And this was commended by Jesus and in Scripture.

Also, you probably do not even notice the ultimate irony in your comment. Only the Catholic Church today fully honors god’s command, “Be fruitful and multiply�. All other Christian denominations practice artificial contraception, even though prior to 1930, all Christian denominations taught the evils of contraception. They apparently saw some kind of time limit on Jesus’ words, “be fruitful and multiply�. But I don’t remember God saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, until 1930, when I shall allow you to use contraception to avoid having children�. Only the Catholic Church remains true to God’s law, because Truth does not change when it is fashionable to do so.

[PinSeeker]

God does not demand everyone engage in sexual intercourse and have children. There are many then and many now who devote themselves fully to God forgoing all sexual activity. And this was commended by Jesus and in Scripture.

The correct way to state that would be, "God does not demand everyone get married." Certainly, God called some then and some now to single-hood and not to marriage.

In the case of Joseph and Mary, God told Joseph (through the angel) not to be afraid to take Mary as his wife because the Child conceived in her was of the Holy Spirit. Until then, Joseph thought she was no longer a virgin, because she was with child, and therefore, if he took Mary to be his wife, he would be committing adultery and causing her to commit adultery, which, of course, would have been directly contrary to one of the Ten Commandments. But God told Joseph not to be afraid of that, because that would not be the case. In telling him to not be afraid to take Mary as his wife, God was implicitly commanding Joseph to partake of all the benefits of marriage, true intimacy -- even physical intimacy -- being one of those benefits. Both Joseph and Mary were well-versed in Scripture, which also contains the Song of Solomon, as I'm sure you know.

Sexual activity or lack thereof is not the issue. However, if a man is called to marry, then sexual activity is a given for those who are physically able, because sex with one's spouse is the physical expression of the closest intimacy the husband and wife can possibly have and as such is God-glorifying, because God is love.

Also, you probably do not even notice the ultimate irony in your comment.

Sigh. I guess I probably don't... LOL!

Only the Catholic Church today fully honors god’s command, “Be fruitful and multiply�. All other Christian denominations practice artificial contraception, even though prior to 1930, all Christian denominations taught the evils of contraception. They apparently saw some kind of time limit on Jesus’ words, “be fruitful and multiply�. But I don’t remember God saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, until 1930, when I shall allow you to use contraception to avoid having children�. Only the Catholic Church remains true to God’s law, because Truth does not change when it is fashionable to do so.

That's not altogether untrue, actually. But the Pharisees thought they were better at keeping God's law than everybody else, too. And in many respects they were not wrong about that. The "thought they were better" part was the problem. And Jesus, as you know, told them they were far from the kingdom.

Grace and peace to you, Reason.

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 23 by PinSeeker]

But God told Joseph not to be afraid of that, because that would not be the case. In telling him to not be afraid to take Mary as his wife, God was implicitly commanding Joseph to partake of all the benefits of marriage, true intimacy -- even physical intimacy

This is your personal interpretation. It is not what the Church Christ established taught. Gee, what shall we do PinSeeker? Two sincere truth seeking Christians desiring to know which one of us is getting it right. Hey, I know! How about we do what Christ commanded and listen to His Church? How clever of Our Lord to give us an authoritative earthly guide to prevent confusion. Praise be to God.

[PinSeeker]

Gee, what shall we do PinSeeker?

Well, I don't really care what you do, Reason. I choose to listen to Christ Himself, via the Holy Spirit, who is very clear in Matthew 1. That's what God said:

• "This is my Son, with Whom I am pleased. Listen to Him."

I can tell you what you should do, but still, that's up to you. You're your own man.

Oh yeah, right; that's "ironic" to you, since I obviously don't listen to him regarding establishing the Roman Catholic Church on the shoulders of Peter, right? Mmm-hm. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Like I said in the other thread, at the end of the day, all you can do is shake your head.

Grace and peace to you.

[RightReason]

[Replying to PinSeeker]

RightReason wrote:


Gee, what shall we do PinSeeker?

Well, I don't really care what you do, Reason.

Well, that’s not very Christian

I choose to listen to Christ Himself, via the Holy Spirit, who is very clear in Matthew 1. That's what God said:


"This is my Son, with Whom I am pleased. Listen to Him."

That’s what you keep saying and yet how is it you don’t seem to be listening to Him? And what might that look like? You listening to Him? Do you hear an audible voice telling you you are getting it right? If not, what if you aren’t right?

I can tell you what you should do, but still, that's up to you.

How do you know what I should do? What if what I think God is telling me what you are saying is wrong? We are both going to God and getting different answers. What should we do now?

You're your own man.

Well, actually, I’m my own woman.

Like I said in the other thread, at the end of the day, all you can do is shake your head.

Yes, with your understanding of church that is all you can do, which is why your understanding is problematic and illogical. God wouldn’t leave us in such a predicament. And so He didn’t. He told us His Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Might be nice to know where to find this pillar of truth. He told His Church, “He who hears you, hears me�. So, there is no need to just shake ones head at the end of the day. At the end of the day, we ought to listen to His Church who was given the keys to the kingdom. If every believer as you say was given these keys and they all teach something different, that isn’t really very helpful, is it? It also is a logical impossibility, because if they are teaching contrary things, they both can’t be right – so both their keys don’t really open do they? So, yes, I guess all you can do is shake your head. Sounds frustrating.

[PinSeeker]

Well, I don't really care what you do, Reason.

Well, that’s not very Christian.

I'm merely saying what you do is of your own accord. But you know that, I'm sure. Pardon me for my clumsiness.

"This is my Son, with Whom I am pleased. Listen to Him."

That’s what you keep saying and yet how is it you don’t seem to be listening to Him?

His sheep hear His voice (John 10).

Do you hear an audible voice telling you you are getting it right?

In a manner of speaking; it's a faith thing. Do you? You don't have to answer that; I'm just being a little facetious.

How do you know what I should do?

Because it's what we all should do. The Bible tells us so.

What if what I think God is telling me what you are saying is wrong?

Pray. With me. We're in this thing together, aren't we?

We are both going to God and getting different answers. What should we do now?

Well no, you say your church leaders are going for you. Pray. With me. We're in this thing together, aren't we?

Well, actually, I’m my own woman.

Fantastic! Please forgive the assumption. But still, pray. With me. We're in this thing together, aren't we?

I guess all you can do is shake your head. Sounds frustrating.

Sure, frustration at the misunderstanding of Christ Himself, perpetuated by the Catholic Church. But thanks be to God, one great Day, all frustration (yours and mine, along with all other sin -- all sorrow and sighing, as the prophet Isaiah puts it in Isaiah 35) will be a thing of the past. We, the ransomed of the LORD will return and enter into Zion with joyful shouting, and everlasting joy will be upon our heads, and we will find gladness and joy. Wow... Love Isaiah 35 (along with the rest of God's inerrant, infallible word, of course).

Grace and peace to you, Reason.

[RightReason]

[Replying to PinSeeker]

RightReason wrote:


Quote:
"This is my Son, with Whom I am pleased. Listen to Him."

That’s what you keep saying and yet how is it you don’t seem to be listening to Him?

His sheep hear His voice (John 10).

That doesn’t answer the question. How do you get around Him saying His church is the pillar and foundation of truth and saying to His church, “He who hears you, hears me. Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven him�?

RightReason wrote:


Do you hear an audible voice telling you you are getting it right?

In a manner of speaking

What manner are we talking about? I asked do you hear a literal, audible voice of God speaking directly to you?

t's a faith thing. Do you?

No. Like most people, God does not speak directly to me in an audible voice. But then, He doesn’t need to. He gave us His Church and said, “He who hears you, hears me�. God speaks to us through Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition (His Church), as designed. And Sacred Scripture needs interpreted, which then brings us back to Him speaking through His Church -- no way around it.

RightReason wrote:


How do you know what I should do?

Because it's what we all should do. The Bible tells us so.

Does it? JW’s, Quakers, Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, Mormons, all say the Bible says something different. Who is right?

RightReason wrote:


What if what I think God is telling me what you are saying is wrong?

Pray. With me. We're in this thing together, aren't we?

Sure. And what if after praying, we still disagree. Which one of us is right?

RightReason wrote:


We are both going to God and getting different answers. What should we do now?

Well no, you say your church leaders are going for you.

Well, no, I’m going to God and when I do through His public revelation via Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, I hear His words to listen to His Church. So, what do we do now?

Pray. With me. We're in this thing together, aren't we?

Still here. Still praying. Still holding a very different understanding than you. Now what?

But thanks be to God, one great Day, all frustration (yours and mine, along with all other sin -- all sorrow and sighing, as the prophet Isaiah puts it in Isaiah 35) will be a thing of the past. We, the ransomed of the LORD will return and enter into Zion with joyful shouting, and everlasting joy will be upon our heads, and we will find gladness and joy. Wow... Love Isaiah 35 (along with the rest of God's inerrant, infallible word, of course).

Love Isaiah too along with the rest of God’s inerrant, infallible words, like these . . . .

“Thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build My church,and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.�

“Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these things 15so that, if I am delayed, you will know how each one must conduct himself in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.�

[PinSeeker]

His sheep hear His voice (John 10).

That doesn’t answer the question.

Sure it does. It's about Jesus, and nothing else. No need to "get around" anything. There is no "co-redeemer." Not Mary, not Peter, not other person or organization of persons, past, present, or future. Only Jesus.

God speaks to us through Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition (His Church), as designed.

So says the Catholic Church... wrongly. In these last days, God has spoken to us by His Son (Hebrews 1:1).

And Sacred Scripture needs interpreted, which then brings us back to Him speaking through His Church -- no way around it.

See above. He has spoken by His Son. We all need each other, for sure, but there's no need for Him to speak further. He warns not to add to His Word (Revelation 22:18). We need teachers, for sure, and God has gifted some to do that by His Spirit. See "Gifts-Spiritual."

How do you know what I should do?

Because it's what we all should do. The Bible tells us so.

Does it?

Yep.

JW’s, Quakers, Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, Mormons, all say the Bible says something different. Who is right?

If they say different things, then not all of them, for sure, and possibly none of them. The Catholic Church included.

What if what I think God is telling me what you are saying is wrong?

Pray. With me. We're in this thing together, aren't we?

Sure. And what if after praying, we still disagree. Which one of us is right?

One of us or neither. I said that before. Something (you, over and over and over again) tells me you're more concerned with being right, which means that at least subconsciously, it's about you. Or the Catholic Church, which still comes back to you. Which is not good; it's about Jesus.

Still here. Still praying. Still holding a very different understanding than you. Now what?

We part gracefully, maintaining our love for each other as brethren in Christ. You don't seem to be able to do that. Which tells me again that, for you, at least subconsciously, it's about you.

Yet again, Reason, grace and peace to you.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 7 by tam]

But there is no sin in her having been married and having relations with Joseph, her husband.

There is if she made a vow to God to consecrate herself to Him and remain a virgin for the Kingdom of God.

Perhaps, but there is no evidence that she did this. You wrote earlier that there is nothing written that explicitly states Joseph and Mary had sexual union (even though they were married, and so would 'become one flesh', and that would certainly be the expectation). Well, there is also nothing written about this supposed vow.

Also, there is nothing wrong with giving oneself entirely to Our Lord – yes, even one’s sexuality! It is a beautiful thing and should be commended for the beautiful voluntary offering that it is. Our oversexed culture can’t understand a love and devotion like this. But Mary and Joseph understood it.

No one said there was anything wrong with that, RR.

But a person choosing that kind of abstinence also tends to refrain from taking a husband (or a wife). Though married couples can refrain for certain periods of time (for worship or dedication or personal reasons) of course. See also 1 Corinth 7.



**


Regardless, it is not a sin to have sexual union with one's husband or wife; and one does not need to be unmarried or a virgin (in the flesh) to be in union with Christ and God, or even to be a "king and priest" in their Kingdom. The apostles (including Peter) had wives and children, as well.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy