Why would god want people to believe a lie?

[bernee51]

Why would a loving, omnipotent, benevolent god cause people to believe falsehoods so that he can condemn them?

See: 2 Thessalonians 2: 11-12

[FiredUp4jesus]

I have to agree with you that your interpretation is more in line with your view of God than what Paul actually wrote.

... implying that you disagree with Paul.

Many thanks!

Or (more likely) that I disagree with someone's translation of what Paul was actually saying.

[McCulloch]

... implying that you disagree with Paul.

Or (more likely) that I disagree with someone's translation of what Paul was actually saying.

I have access to many translations, which one words the passage to agree with your stated point of view?

For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

So God will send great deception upon them, and they will believe all these lies.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,

and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,

or did you mean interpretation?

[FiredUp4jesus]

... implying that you disagree with Paul.

Or (more likely) that I disagree with someone's translation of what Paul was actually saying.

I have access to many translations, which one words the passage to agree with your stated point of view?

For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

So God will send great deception upon them, and they will believe all these lies.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,

and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,

or did you mean interpretation?

I can live with that. I think it is probably quibbling over a passage. The important part is the idea that Paul was trying to explain. If you will allow that God is currently restraining the deluding influence, I'll concede that when He stops He might actually say the words "Go, and tell them what they want to hear." That qualifies as sending to me.

[McCulloch]

[...]If you will allow that God is currently restraining the deluding influence, I'll concede that when He stops He might actually say the words "Go, and tell them what they want to hear." That qualifies as sending to me.

I will allow that the passage states that at the time of the writing, God was restraining the deluding influence. And that the writer assumes that the readers knew who the "man of lawlessness" was and that he was already at work and that the readers knew that God was restraining him. I don't know if God is still restraining the deluding influence, do you?

So, is it safe to say that you believe that God does not want people to believe a lie, but if they want to believe a lie, he might send them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false in order that they all may be judged?

[FiredUp4jesus]

[...]If you will allow that God is currently restraining the deluding influence, I'll concede that when He stops He might actually say the words "Go, and tell them what they want to hear." That qualifies as sending to me.

1. I will allow that the passage states that at the time of the writing, God was restraining the deluding influence. And that the writer assumes that the readers knew who the "man of lawlessness" was and that he was already at work and that the readers knew that God was restraining him. I don't know if God is still restraining the deluding influence, do you?

2. So, is it safe to say that you believe that God does not want people to believe a lie, but if they want to believe a lie, he might send them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false in order that they all may be judged?

1. Absolutely God is still restraining Him (that is what I am trying to do here on this site). My personal opinion is that the deluding influence will not be released until the "end times" when the church (God's people) won't be here to fight against the lies anymore.

2. Sure, as long as we agree that He is not an active agent of deception.

[McCulloch]

I guess that in order to come to any agreement, we will have to examine the passage in question.

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Context: The Christians were worried about the day of the Lord. Apparently, they believed that it would not be too long coming or that it had even already come.
Paul assures them that it had not already come. Because an apostasy would have to come first. This is not much good twenty centuries later, there have been many apostasies. But linked to this apostasy is the man of lawlessness aka son of destruction. Paul speaks of this man in the present tense. He opposes, he exalts, he takes his seat.
Paul also talks about something that at the time of the writing is restraining this man of lawlessness. But that the mystery of lawlessness, again at the time of the writing, was already at work. Someone, someone that those Christians apparently knew about, was restraining the man of lawlessness. And that someone would be, in a matter of time, taken out of the way.
Once the restraint is removed, then will be the Lord's return. The man of lawlessness who evidently has power and false wonders, will be destroyed.

Questions:

1. Who was the man of lawlessness?
2. Who was restraining him?

2. So, is it safe to say that you believe that God does not want people to believe a lie, but if they want to believe a lie, he might send them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false in order that they all may be judged?

2. Sure, as long as we agree that He is not an active agent of deception.

I cannot see how that is taught in the text. I cannot see how sending a deluding influence can be interpreted as not being an active agent in the deception. It clearly does not say "let loose upon them a deluding influence".

[FiredUp4jesus]

I guess that in order to come to any agreement, we will have to examine the passage in question.

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Context: The Christians were worried about the day of the Lord. Apparently, they believed that it would not be too long coming or that it had even already come.
Paul assures them that it had not already come. Because an apostasy would have to come first. This is not much good twenty centuries later, there have been many apostasies. But linked to this apostasy is the man of lawlessness aka son of destruction. Paul speaks of this man in the present tense. He opposes, he exalts, he takes his seat.
Paul also talks about something that at the time of the writing is restraining this man of lawlessness. But that the mystery of lawlessness, again at the time of the writing, was already at work. Someone, someone that those Christians apparently knew about, was restraining the man of lawlessness. And that someone would be, in a matter of time, taken out of the way.
Once the restraint is removed, then will be the Lord's return. The man of lawlessness who evidently has power and false wonders, will be destroyed.

Questions:

1. Who was the man of lawlessness?
2. Who was restraining him?

2. So, is it safe to say that you believe that God does not want people to believe a lie, but if they want to believe a lie, he might send them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false in order that they all may be judged?

2. Sure, as long as we agree that He is not an active agent of deception.

I cannot see how that is taught in the text. I cannot see how sending a deluding influence can be interpreted as not being an active agent in the deception. It clearly does not say "let loose upon them a deluding influence".

Sorry, about taking so long to answer this post. The first time I read it I assumed it was a rhetorical question. The reason I guess is that you are a member of the former christian group. Based on that, I assumed you already knew the answer to the question. Am I mistaken or do you really not know who the "Man of lawlessness" is? And are you equally unaware who is restraining him?

[McCulloch]

I cannot see how that is taught in the text. I cannot see how sending a deluding influence can be interpreted as not being an active agent in the deception. It clearly does not say "let loose upon them a deluding influence".

The first time I read it I assumed it was a rhetorical question. The reason I guess is that you are a member of the former christian group. Based on that, I assumed you already knew the answer to the question. Am I mistaken or do you really not know who the "Man of lawlessness" is? And are you equally unaware who is restraining him?

I was unaware that there was unanimity of opinion regarding the Christian interpretation of this passage. Please enlighten me.

[FiredUp4jesus]

I cannot see how that is taught in the text. I cannot see how sending a deluding influence can be interpreted as not being an active agent in the deception. It clearly does not say "let loose upon them a deluding influence".

The first time I read it I assumed it was a rhetorical question. The reason I guess is that you are a member of the former christian group. Based on that, I assumed you already knew the answer to the question. Am I mistaken or do you really not know who the "Man of lawlessness" is? And are you equally unaware who is restraining him?

I was unaware that there was unanimity of opinion regarding the Christian interpretation of this passage. Please enlighten me.

Why don't you tell me who you think it is? Who is the enemy of God? Who is the father of lies? Come on now this is too easy!

[McCulloch]

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

I was unaware that there was unanimity of opinion regarding the Christian interpretation of this passage. Please enlighten me.

Why don't you tell me who you think it is? Who is the enemy of God? Who is the father of lies? Come on now this is too easy!

• Who is the man of lawlessness in 2 Thess. 2? This is another name for the antichrist.
  Then who is the antichrist?
• The Man of Lawlessness Is Paul speaking of one emperor specifically? He may be or he may be speaking about the whole lot of them that were to come. Just as Revelation 17:10 speaks of the one who goes to destruction seems to point to Domitian, it is possible that Paul is calling Domitian “the man of lawlessness.” However, I tend to agree with B.B. Warfield who believes the lawless one refers to whole line of wicked emperors that raised themselves against God. Paul wrote this letter under Emperor Claudius. But the next emperor that would arise after Claudius was Nero. Nero was the beginning of the outlandish activities of the emperors and the enforcement of worship as deities.
• THE MAN WHO CLAIMS TO BE GOD its origin is Satan
• The Second Coming Of Jesus Will Occur AFTER The Man Of Lawlessness Is Revealed, And At The END Of The Seven Year Tribulation Period The Man of Lawlessness is the Antichrist.
• The Man of Lawlessness This passage of 2 Thessalonians has been fulfilled historically, and is being fulfilled, and may be fulfilled yet more.
• Who is "the man of lawlessness" in 2 Thess 2? the context of 2 Thess. 2 reveals that the "man of lawlessness" is a principle, not a person.
• Who is the Man of Sin? Many Theologians have privately interpreted this man of sin to be everything from The Pope, Hitler, Stalin, to a new born devil man himself. ... It seems clear to me that these verses are not referring to one particular man, but to man, "in particular." Man who being led by the spirit of Satan, forsakes the Lord to transgress the law of God in the Holy Temple.
• The Man of Lawlessness -- A Preteristic Postmillennial Interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2 The Man of Lawlessness is Nero Caesar, who also is the Beast of Revelation, as a number of Church Fathers believed.
• the Man of Lawlessness, the Man of Sin, the Wicked One, the general apostasy of the Church, the Returning Lord, the destroyer of the Antichrist he is a man, a person! ... the Antichrist
• The Second Seal, The Man of Lawlessness, and The Third Universal Theory And the “Man of lawlessness,” that “Son of perdition,” already lives! When I was still a student at Christ For the Nations in Dallas, Texas, I came to believe Muammar Gaddafi to be that man, because the angel Gabriel’s description of the man fit Gadaffi like a glove (I even wrote a little book, entitled “The Red Dragon”). A prophet from England (who had been a regular speaker at Christ For The Nations Institute’s commencement services) also thought him to be the one. He said, “Dear sister, I believe we are the only ones who see Gaddafi might be the man of lawlessness.”
• The Man of Lawlessness In short, the world is being set up for a crisis that will demand the intervention of a man with uncanny skills and phenomenal charismatic influence. That man will be the Anti-christ.
• The Man of Lawlessness. Mr. Loss, revealed elsewhere in the scriptures as the antichrist, is rather difficult to identify because he takes on many shapes. He can be a political leader, a philosophy, a heresy, a revolutionary group...... yes the day may even come when he is a rouge computer.
• THE SECOND EPISTLE TO THE THESSALONIANS
• The Man Of Lawlessness The fact that the lawless one is the development of the secret phase of lawlessness, which is already in operation, strengthens this position. ... The happiness of the thousand years will be the fruit of conformity to law, but the preceding era will be cursed by lawlessness, especially in the person of the man at its head.
• The Mystery of the Antichrist According to the Watchtower, the man of lawlessness is the clergy class that developed hundreds of years ago as a result of Christianity gradually drifting away from the truth into apostasy.