"Christian" Republicans Stand the NT on its Head

[Danmark]

https://thinkprogress.org/bad-theology- ... 42ef90b387
Question for debate: 'Does the Republican battle against programs to help the poor stand in direct contradiction to the words of Jesus Christ:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.�
Matthew 25:41-46

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 15 by tam]

Both seem true. You don't work you don't eat but if you ask for food and I can I should give it to you.

I certainty wouldn't advise Christians to not work. I think Jesus wants us to.

[McCulloch]

First of all, I apologize for the delay in posting this response.

Minimum wages do not reduce employment, no matter how much the uber-rich ideologues want to claim that it does.

Wrong. I would ask you to provide evidence but we both know you have NOTHING to back up your misinformed claim.

A famous 1990 study, by David Card and Alan Krueger, compared fast food employment in New Jersey and Pennsylvania after one state increased its minimum wage and the other didn’t. They didn’t find a significant effect on employment.
http://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/njmin-aer.pdf

Another landmark paper looked at US restaurant employment in 288 different pairs of adjacent counties that had different minimum wages. They found that minimum wages are effective in boosting pay, but they don’t harm employment.
http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/workingpapers/157-07.pdf

A paper in the British Journal of Industrial Relations examined 1,494 estimates of the employment effect of US minimum wage rises published in 64 different papers. They found that there was virtually no employment effect from minimum wage rises.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract

The UK Low Pay Commission has now commissioned over 130 pieces of research from accomplished academic economists, which finds minimum wages boost workers’ pay, but don’t harm employment.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... t_2014.pdf

A 2011 paper in the British Journal of Industrial Relations found no significant effect of Australian minimum wage rises on teenagers. Another paper looked at the effect of youth award rates and found no evidence that they reduce employment.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract
http://www.motu.org.nz/publications/det ... ia_a_regre

A 2010 paper compared contiguous county-pairs in the United States that straddle a state border and found no adverse employment effects.
http://irle.berkeley.edu/files/2010/Min ... orders.pdf

In this 2016 report, the historical data relating to the 22 increases in the federal minimum wage between 1938 and 2009 was examined to determine whether or not if you raise wages, you will lose jobs. The results were clear: these basic economic indicators show no correlation between federal minimum-wage increases and lower employment levels, even in the industries that are most impacted by higher minimum wages.
http://www.nelp.org/publication/raise-w ... nt-levels/

40 economists at Canadian universities and two former president of the Canadian Economics Association state in a letter to the Ontario government, “For years, we have heard that raising the minimum wage will kill jobs, raise prices and cause businesses to flee Ontario. This is fear-mongering that is out of line with the latest economic research. ... on the issue of the minimum wage many economists are ready to admit that the weight of evidence points to a strong case for raising the minimum wage.�
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/0 ... s-say.html

Many critics think that raising the minimum wage will hurt precisely those workers that this policy is designed to help because firms will lay off workers to save on labor costs. Raising the minimum wage, critics argue, will create more unemployment and more reliance on public assistance. But there is no evidence to support this claim: states with a minimum wage higher than the Federal minimum have experienced faster rates of job growth than other states.
Raising the minimum wage to this amount would lower welfare rolls by 1.7 million people and reduce government spending on welfare programs by $7.6 billion per year.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aaron-pac ... 52976.html

Wrong. I would ask you to provide evidence but we both know you have NOTHING to back up your misinformed claim.

Please note that the emphasis on the word nothing is WinePusher's original. You may disagree with the evidence. There may be evidence for the other side. But it is misinformed to claim that there is no evidence on this point.

Have you ever worked McCulloch? Honest question, how would you feel if 30% of your paycheck went to somebody who was able to work but chose not to?

I don't know how this is relevant, but yes, I have worked. Nine years for an investment broker and fifteen for an accounting, tax, consulting and financial services firm. Please explain how my point of view would be any less valid if I were a homeless teen at an internet cafe.

Honest question, how did you arrive at the 30% number? Let's say that 60% of your paycheque went to taxes. Then let's further imagine that one third of government spending went to social spending. If we further image that half of those receiving social assistance were freeloaders, able but unwilling to work. 60% times ⅓ times ½ equals 10%. I strongly suspect that you pay less than 60% of your paycheque to taxes. I am fairly sure that government spending on social services is less than one third. I also believe that less than half of social services recipients are freeloaders. So the total should be way less than 10%.

But it would be hypocritical of WinePusher to pull a number out of a hat while at the same time criticizing me for making claims without evidence. So, there must be something wrong with my rather loose analysis. Please demonstrate to us that you are not a hypocrite by showing us specifically how you arrived at 30%.

Minimum wages laws protect vulnerable workers from exploitation and are supposed to allow a living wage for everyone who works full time.

For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing.� God is not concerned about oxen, is He? Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops.

Really, if you cannot afford to pay a fair wage to your workers, then you cannot afford to stay in business.

What do you know about business McCulloch? Did you know that many business owners actually put their payroll on CREDIT CARDS?

I didn't know that. I talked to my banker about your claim. She said that any business owner who believed that they had to put their payroll on credit cards should talk to their bank about better options for short term business loans and should learn more about cash flow analysis. Those who regularly use very high interest interest loans such as credit cards to meet their payroll, will not be in business very long. My friend who used to own and run a used book store said that she never used credit cards to meet her payroll. Another friend who does the bookkeeping and is a sales clerk for a family owned spice store says that they never have used credit cards to meet their payroll. A couple we know who run a tea room and cafe also say that they have never used credit cards to meet their payroll.

I started out working minimum wage jobs. I knew and fully accepted that the skills I had at the time didn't merit a LIVING WAGE. I knew that if I wanted to afford rent, a car, a phone, etc that I'd have to increase my skills and make myself valuable to employers. But hey, apparently in your world frycooks and janitors are just are valuable as EMT's and CNA's.

Please don't put words into my mouth that I have not said. In my world, everyone who works full time should be paid a living wage. Anything less is exploitative. Those with greater skills and abilities should be paid more. [/quote]

[WinePusher]

[Replying to McCulloch]

Thanks for the reply, and I will write a far more thorough response in the upcoming days.

But I would like to briefly comment on something you said. You said that you worked in the financial industry and in an investment firm. I don't know how it works in Canada, but in America all investment professionals are required to act as fiduciaries for their clients.

That's means that if you have a high new worth client, and you have discretionary authority over his account, you cannot place him in high tax investments without good reason. Rather, you would put his money in tax free, tax deferred, tax advantaged investment products.

So how exactly were you able to work in the investment industry with these high tax, I hate rich people, opinions of yours? Were you like a SJW secret agent who placed your HNW clients in high tax investments?

[McCulloch]

Thanks for the reply, and I will write a far more thorough response in the upcoming days.

I'll look forward to it.

I don't know how it works in Canada, but in America all investment professionals are required to act as fiduciaries for their clients.

True in Canada.

That's means that if you have a high new worth client, and you have discretionary authority over his account, you cannot place him in high tax investments without good reason. Rather, you would put his money in tax free, tax deferred, tax advantaged investment products.

Yes, that is true. Although I did not have such discretionary powers, those who did were obliged to do their best for their clients, within the framework of the law.

So how exactly were you able to work in the investment industry with these high tax, I hate rich people, opinions of yours? Were you like a SJW secret agent who placed your HNW clients in high tax investments?

I don't hate rich people. I don't even blame them for taking advantage of legally available tax avoidance. But there should be fewer of those options. The rich should not have a disproportionate influence on legislative, executive and judicial operations of government.

[bluethread]

The rich should not have a disproportionate influence on legislative, executive and judicial operations of government.

How can one assure proportionate influence. Should government mandate that all hourly workers be given leave to influence legislative, executive and judicial operations of government. What about the disproportionate influence that the nonworking poor have on legislative, executive and judicial operations of government, due to their greater free time?

[McCulloch]

[Replying to post 25 by bluethread]

We cannot assure it, but we can limit campaign funding and lobbying.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 25 by bluethread]

We cannot assure it, but we can limit campaign funding and lobbying.

I think the Cllintons put the lie to that. As with other things in the economy, they can be driven out of the open market, but it will then just move into the black market. Also, the "we" who would be enacting that legislation would be the very people who would benefit from it not being enforceable. By the way, I am not a Republican, I am more of a classical federalist.

[Kenisaw]

And the churches should decide who is deserving and how much aid will be provided.

?
Please stop writing incoherent stuff.

When you take one sentence out of a paragraph and therefore out of context, it's a lot easier to make such a baseless charge, isn't it Pusher?

[Danmark]

Minimum wage killing restaurants and jobs as expected.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/bus ... story.html

This is a half truth. I am, BTW, not a huge fan of minimum wage laws to correct social inequities. To the extent they are used at all, they should not be set so high they are significantly higher than the value of some laborers. Adam Smith's thinking and the idea of supply and demand still function to some extent, despite the fact there is no such thing as a free market. Every working person deserves a decent life and an income sufficient to live with dignity. But the minimum wage law can be an unwieldy and counterproductive hatchet.
This subtopic is not aimed at supporting minimum wage laws, but about describing the mean, unChristian approach many politicians on the religious right advocate which seems to constantly rail against any law that gives the poor any benefit at all, then claim 'Jesus told me so.'

If there were a hell, it should be reserved for these hypocrites.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead men's bones....
. . . .
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?"
Matthew 23

[bluethread]

I am, BTW, not a huge fan of minimum wage laws to correct social inequities. To the extent they are used at all, they should not be set so high they are significantly higher than the value of some laborers.

I am glad to hear that you are not a huge fan. However, in what you consider to be the proper use, how does one determine the value of some laborers?

Every working person deserves a decent life and an income sufficient to live with dignity.

What is "a decent life and an income sufficient to live with dignity"? In these United States there are very few who don't live a life that most of the rest of the world would consider a decent life. Also, what is the market rate for dignity? I have seen some very well off people with little to no dignity and some dirt poor people with plenty of dignity.

This subtopic is not aimed at supporting minimum wage laws, but about describing the mean, unChristian approach many politicians on the religious right advocate which seems to constantly rail against any law that gives the poor any benefit at all, then claim 'Jesus told me so.'

Who is claiming that? The 'Jesus told me so.' crowd is generally those who say that the government is supposed to take your money and give it to someone else, after taking a cut to provide for the bureaucracy. Now, rather than get into the "T'is so. No t'aint. T'is. T'aint. . . . " routine. Maybe we need to look at the passage where Yeshua says that there should be a minimum wage.