New World Order

[Anselm]

http://www.ngteam.org/NWO.htm
Is the revelation of New World Order heresy or the strategy of the church of the Last Days? What are your opinions?

[Cathar1950]

If God says homosexuality is a sin it is the sin. Abortion is a sin, too. All nations that practised those sins and many others have died out.

I would like to hear of any nation where homosexuality or abortion has destroyed it. Don't use Sodom because Homosexuality was not the sin they committed according to the prophets.
The problem is that God does not tell us. We have stories, myths and someone else telling us what God says but unless he is telling every one personally, it is hearsay and arbitrary . Even the idea of love in the NT is other worldly and removed from meaning that relates to this world and normal human affection and therefor lacks moral quality. It amounts to obeying commandments from a mythical tyrant as given and seen by others. Even the judge of the earth is to do right.

[Anselm]

HughDP

Well that's tricky to sell to me. If I don't believe in God, I don't believe in sin do I?

Do you believe in gravitation? If still not, you can make sure how it works, just step down off the roof. That may be a lame example but it is true. Anyway you're responsible for all you do and how you live. Whether you believe or not after death you will have to meet Jesus but not as the Saviour but as the Judge. The acquaintance shall happen inevitably. So it is much wiser to get acquainted with Jesus while you're still alive.

I will grant you that I'd rather live here than in a Muslim country and that I think the freedoms afforded here are greater than those afforded in many Muslim countries.What I don't see, however, is that there's any threat that the UK will suddenly become a Muslim country. Concessions are made in multi-cultural societies and they swing back and forth, sometimes going too far one way, sometimes too far the other, but over time they usually settle down into some sort of happy medium.

The birth rate in the UK among the Europeans is decreasing but that of the Muslim population is growing very fast including emigrants from the former colonies. What's going to happen after 15-20 years isn't so difficult to predict. The muslims are going to multiply and then start to dictate the christian. It's rather possible that persecutions will begin. Let's remember a dannish movie maker Teo van Gog shot by the muslims. It can soon become a serious problem.

There is nothing a Christian theorcracy can add to my country that I want, and I fear it would take much away instead.

You don't uderstand that revelation properly. The religious theocracy like catholic caesarpopeism of the Middle Ages wouldn't establish in the similar manner. The secular government cannot be cancelled or replaced by spiritual government it must be influenced and consulted by priests who know the living God and His Scriptures.
OccamsRazor

So you have no problem with Christians passing a law which is considered unjust toward Mulsims and the Gay community?

Of course no problems. If gays want to live together, let them live hidden life, popularization of gay movement, their claim to be equalled to heterosexuals puts indignities upon a marriage which must be acknowledged a union of a woman and a man only.

Are you saying that terrorism is caused by the reduced influence of Christians?

If christians refuse to take activity in different branches of politics and society those branches are captured by sinners: gays, muslims, occultists and others.

I'm sorry but I do not agree with defining my moral principles from whatever your preferred religious book tells me

Your choice, your responsibility.

Please tell me a nation which has died out due to practicing abortion.

Cathar1950

I would like to hear of any nation where homosexuality or abortion has destroyed it.

The Roman Empire, Cannaan tribes
Persons or nations don't sin committing one kind of sin only. All ancient nations practised homosexual contacts, abortion and many other sins. All those nations disappeared only the Hebrews survived because they obeyed the will of God.

I also do not wish all Europeans become Christians.

It doesn't depend on your wish it fully depends on the will of God.

Point (1) says that your Christian democracy is free and democratic but needs to legislate against non-Christian practices

Only those practices which make a human ugly both spiritually and physically.

Point (2) says that a Muslim state is undemocratic and intolerant because it legislates against non-Muslim practices.

Absolutely right. In muslim societies any sort of disobedience is subjected to repressions. Christian government must not make repressions it must restrict immorality by means of arranging free access for christian churches to gospel the world, the society, the government, so to bring all spheres into accordance

Cathar1950

We have stories, myths and someone else telling us what God says but unless he is telling every one personally, it is hearsay and arbitrary

The verity of the Scriptures is proved by a number of scientists if you don't believe it, I'm sorry for you then.

Even the idea of love in the NT is other worldly and removed from meaning that relates to this world and normal human affection and therefore lacks moral quality.

It's your subjective point of view.

It amounts to obeying commandments from a mythical tyrant as given and seen by others. Even the judge of the earth is to do right.

You have perverted opinion of God. He is not a tyrant. He so loved all people that sent Jesus Christ who took our sins upon Himself to redeem us from sin, praise the Lord!!!

[HughDP]

HughDP

Well that's tricky to sell to me. If I don't believe in God, I don't believe in sin do I?

Do you believe in gravitation? If still not, you can make sure how it works, just step down off the roof. That may be a lame example but it is true.

Yes I believe in gravitation. It would hurt too much not to.

Anyway you're responsible for all you do and how you live.

That is pretty much what I believe, within certain obvious limits.

Whether you believe or not after death you will have to meet Jesus but not as the Saviour but as the Judge. The acquaintance shall happen inevitably. So it is much wiser to get acquainted with Jesus while you're still alive.

You see, this is where we start to disagree. I don't believe that Jesus is either my saviour or my judge.

This is likely to be a sticking point in our conversation because whilst I can conceive of your situation and faith, you seem unable to appreciate mine. Any time you try to make a point with me which uses Jesus in the context of Him being the Son of God, it is wasted.

It is not that I mind discussing this Son Of Godness per se, but that's not what this thread is about. You are making a presumption upon which your entire argument rests but I don't accept that presumption in the first place.

The birth rate in the UK among the Europeans is decreasing but that of the Muslim population is growing very fast including emigrants from the former colonies. What's going to happen after 15-20 years isn't so difficult to predict. The muslims are going to multiply and then start to dictate the christian. It's rather possible that persecutions will begin. Let's remember a dannish movie maker Teo van Gog shot by the muslims. It can soon become a serious problem.

I'm not sure what you're proposing. Immigration is an issue in the UK, but I believe our country will find a satisfactory solution to any problems it causes. It may take time and more than one governmental term to find a fair and satisfactory solution, but I think they'll find it eventually.

I certainly don't see a Christian theocracy as the answer.

There is nothing a Christian theorcracy can add to my country that I want, and I fear it would take much away instead.

You don't uderstand that revelation properly. The religious theocracy like catholic caesarpopeism of the Middle Ages wouldn't establish in the similar manner. The secular government cannot be cancelled or replaced by spiritual government it must be influenced and consulted by priests who know the living God and His Scriptures.

I'm afraid I disagree. A government must be influenced by politics and should not attempt to force any particular religious belief on its people.

You're proposing to establish a Christian-influenced government which does all the things you hate Islam-influenced governments doing. The only difference is that it will be doing them for a religion you happen to support. Can't you see what's wrong about that?

It would be a huge step backwards if we were to allow a Christian theocracy in this country and I would oppose it with some considerable vigour.

Anselm, this discussion hasn't been entirely unrewarding and I'm happy to continue with it, but I really can't see us making a great deal of progress in relation to the 'New World Order' as we're both approaching the issue from fundamentally different starting points.

[Anselm]

HughDP
I see the discussion on New World Order has reached a deadlock. You're an unbeliever like other members. All of you reject Jesus Christ and don't believe He can set you free from sin and delusions that's why you don't want yourselves and your country to be enlighted by God's truth and you feel comforted to be sinners. In the countries of the former Soviet Union especially in Ukraine a lot of people turn to God and give their lives to Jesus, become healed physically and spiritually. In Kiev, the capital of Ukraine, a born again christian baptized by Holy Ghost has been elected a mayor of Kiev, one of the gospel churches containig over 30000 members is making a great progress. The revival has come.

New World Order is a radical solution to all the social issues, which can reduce the negative influence of occultism, homosexuality, abortions, pornography and other sorts of immorality in the socity highly advertised on mass media. Criminal prosecution must be started for occultists and those who advertise occult practices. This social cancer must be ceased. Gay parades must be outlawed. All these measures are preventing in order to stop moral decay. There are no other alternatives. Which do you choose: the New World Order headed by Jesus Christ or antichrist's government? I've chosen Jesus Christ.

[HughDP]

HughDP
I see the discussion on New World Order has reached a deadlock. You're an unbeliever like other members. All of you reject Jesus Christ and don't believe He can set you free from sin and delusions that's why you don't want yourselves and your country to be enlighted by God's truth and you feel comforted to be sinners.

Yes, that's pretty close. I don't believe in the concept of 'sin' and I don't believe I'm 'delusional' just because I don't happen to agree with you, but otherwise you've posted a fair assessment there.

However, I'm just me and there are many Christian members of this forum for whom your statement that I'm 'an unbeliever like other members' might be untrue.

New World Order is a radical solution to all the social issues, which can reduce the negative influence of occultism, homosexuality, abortions, pornography and other sorts of immorality in the socity highly advertised on mass media. Criminal prosecution must be started for occultists and those who advertise occult practices. This social cancer must be ceased. Gay parades must be outlawed. All these measures are preventing in order to stop moral decay.

Doesn't sound like something I'll be voting for. Surely you must realise that prosecuting 'occultists' won't stop them believing in the occult. I'm sure that if you were prosecuted for being a Christian, it wouldn't stop believing in Christ, would it?

Which do you choose: the New World Order headed by Jesus Christ or antichrist's government? I've chosen Jesus Christ.

I'll choose neither, thanks (although I must confess I haven't seen the antichrist's manifesto). I'll choose a state that allows freedom of choice in religious expression, subject to the laws of the land.

[McCulloch]

All of you reject Jesus Christ and don't believe He can set you free from sin and delusions that's why you don't want yourselves and your country to be enlighted by God's truth and you feel comforted to be sinners.

This is a misrepresentation of the beliefs of unbelievers. Many of us don't see how ancient manuscripts reported to be written by the hand of God can set us free from delusions (untruths). We are more convinced by evidence objectively tested. We do not define moral wrongdoing (what you call sin) the same way as you, but we do believe in morality. To say otherwise only displays one's ignorance.

New World Order is a radical solution to all the social issues, which can reduce the negative influence of occultism, homosexuality, abortions, pornography and other sorts of immorality in the soc[e]ity highly advertised on mass media.

Well, I have to agree that this New World Order is radical.

Criminal prosecution must be started for occultists and those who advertise occult practices. This social cancer must be ceased.

And I have to agree that occultism, like all forms of supernaturalism, has a negative effect on society. However, I believe that rationalism might be a better solution. Do you not see your own contradictions? You advocate the imposition by law of the principles of one particular supernaturalist religion system in order to suppress the rights of those who practice other supernaturalist religions.

Gay parades must be outlawed. All these measures are preventing in order to stop moral decay. There are no other alternatives.

This is where you are wrong. There are always alternatives.

Which do you choose: the New World Order headed by Jesus Christ or antichrist's government? I've chosen Jesus Christ.

Another false dilemma. Soviet style Communism or American Republicism. No, there are other choices. Christian theocracy or Islamic theocracy. No, how about a religiously neutral tolerant secular government. Jesus or the antichrist. I don't believe that either exists.

However, lets get back to the topic for discussion. Is the revelation of New World Order heresy or the strategy of the church of the Last Days?
This is a question best left to those who identify themselves with the church of Jesus Christ. So far the only Christians who have responded are 1John and micatala. 1John did not actually disagree with the argument but certainly did not express great interest. Micatala thinks that Alexey Ledyaev represents the suppression of human rights and is dangerous.

Let's hear from the Christians. Do you believe that other religions should be suppressed by force of law? Have the occultists infiltrated the halls of power? Do you believe that governments should become Christian theocracies? Is this what your Bible and your churches teach and support? Or is Alexey Ledyaev a heretic who will damage the good reputation of Christianity?

[Anselm]

HughDP

Surely you must realise that prosecuting 'occultists' won't stop them believing in the occult.

Absolutely right. The aim is not making all occultists christians, the real purpose is restricting their bad influence and popularization magic. Some movies like Harry Potter advertise magic like something cool and powerful and a lot of kids get spiritually infected. If occultist want to practise their magic let them do it hidden in the undeground. Why should people be tolerant to them? Do occultists and astrologists do good to the society? Only harm. Gays destroy our moral foundations. Homosexuality is a sin and an uncurable disease that can be healed by Jesus only. Do the society have any profits from it? Only degeneration. We're talking about tolerance, have you seen tolerant gays who want to repent and give up homosexuality? Moreover they demand to openly worship their homosexual religion and propogandize it. They want all our children make gays. So there will be no peace or tolerance between us and them. We have to fight for our rights and christians must show advantage of a heterosexual marriage over a so called homosexual marriage. What if the gas hose is put into the exhaust but not into the gasoline tank, will the automobile move?

I'll choose a state that allows freedom of choice in religious expression, subject to the laws of the land

The states accepting New World Order will be the examles of states you said about above. Any religion which is not a threat to the society wil be permitted. Is the biblical basis unfit for the society? Every christian democratic state bases (better say should base) its foundations and laws on the Bible. Only The Bible has the answers to all social issues. The problems appear when the Word of God is left desolate. Can the secular world find the solutions to its problems? There is still no solution to be found to such diseases like drug addiction and prostitution? The Church and the government should collaborate with each other, not conflict or oppose one another. The presidents should be consulted by the priests. But the secular and spiritual powers must not be concentrated in one person, both powers must be separated but cooperate together. The Gospel church must be offered great latitude to solve problems and extirpate all social vices. Prostitutes, gays, occultists, alcohol and drug addicted must be healed and repent. Take a fish out of water it will choke, take a prostitute or an addict out of their environment and let Jesus him or her heal from sin and we'll get a good person. The government's duty is to offer the Church which is the body of Christ freedom to do God's work. Most governments not only contribute to churches spreading the Gospel in their states, quite the contrary, governments prevent spreading Gospel. The New World Order state and the Church is a great union which may strike down satanic power in the world.

although I must confess I haven't seen the antichrist's manifesto

All signs of coming antichrist are described in the Bible.

I'm just me and there are many Christian members of this forum for whom your statement that I'm 'an unbeliever like other members' might be untrue.

It doesn't matter what think other members, you don't regard youself as a christian. That's enough of it.

[McCulloch]

... They [homosexuals] want all our children make gays.

I suppose that you have evidence to back up this claim.

... christians must show advantage of a heterosexual marriage over a so called homosexual marriage.

There is a big difference between showing the advantage of one particular position over another and forcing compliance to one set of religiously motivated rules by force of law.

Any religion which is not a threat to the society wil be permitted. Is the biblical basis unfit for the society? Every christian democratic state bases (better say should base) its foundations and laws on the Bible. Only The Bible has the answers to all social issues.

And the Bible-believers are the ones who get to decide which religion is a threat to society and which religions are not. Your concept of a Christian Democratic state is flawed. It must either be a Christian theocracy which tramples on the rights of non-believers or a Democracy which allows for toleration of various points of view unless they can be objectively shown to be dangerous.

...Most governments not only contribute to churches spreading the Gospel in their states, quite the contrary, governments preve[n]t spreading Gospel.

In what way?

It doesn't matter what think other members, you don't regard youself as a christian. That's enough of it.

This seems to sum up your point of view. We are right, everyone else is wrong. What we say matters because God is on our side. No one else has any rights.

I am still interested in what the Christians here think. Tselem? Youngborean?

[Cathar1950]

Anselm wrote:

... christians must show advantage of a heterosexual marriage over a so called homosexual marriage.

They don't have to move near schools unless they adopt.

What if the gas hose is put into the exhaust but not into the gasoline tank, will the automobile move?

Is that a Johnism? Go to the other thread where we hear it all the time.

I think The USA is the NWO it says so on our money.

[HughDP]

Anselm, we're getting nowhere here. Suffice it to say I don't agree. I could go through and counteract you point-by-point, but I can't see any benefit in doing so.

Whilst you continue to forward the idea of a Christian theocracy, you can safely assume I don't agree.

Let's leave it at that eh?