This generation shall not pass until

[Checkpoint]

This issue has been discussed over the centuries, and resulted in no agreed answer. Instead at least four possibilities have been proposed. These are:

#1. The generation alive at the time He spoke.
#2. The generation living when He returns.
#3. The nation of Israel, or the Jews as a race.
#4. A particular kind of people.

What is your view on this, and why do you hold it?

[Yahu]

This issue has been discussed over the centuries, and resulted in no agreed answer. Instead at least four possibilities have been proposed. These are:

#1. The generation alive at the time He spoke.
#2. The generation living when He returns.
#3. The nation of Israel, or the Jews as a race.
#4. A particular kind of people.

What is your view on this, and why do you hold it?

You have to look earlier in the speech.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

That is the generation that will see the events.

Notice how Jesus used the word "YE". He was talking to the group of people before him. That THEY would see the abomination of desolation. This TOO was obviously expected to occur in the life time of the people he was talking to.

Also I notice you used the word "That". You employed good grammar. But let's be consistent. Jesus too would have used the word "that" for THAT generation. But he used the word "This", obviously referring to the generation of the people he was talking to.

It didn't occur in the generation He was talking to therefore it could NOT have been that generation it was referencing. Since Yeshua was sinless and He didn't lie, the error in interpretation MUST be with the translation or your understanding of it.

The only other option is that scripture is not authoritative and that is not an option in this subforum. We have to take scripture as authoritative to even debate in this subforum.

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 12 by JehovahsWitness]

You claimed: In scripture "this" can refer to "that".

Please give examples.

Easy. He says certain things will happen that will occure before the end times. The generation that witnesses those events is it. So 'when the generation that sees these events occur, this is the generation that will see the end times'. 'This generation' refers to the generation that witnesses the signs of the end. They will all occur within 1 generation.

Hebrew and Greek do not follow the precise rules that English does. You can't go by the exact wording in English but have to check out what alternate ways it could be translated into English. Many words in the translations are added to conform to our language. Sometimes it either alters the meaning to us or it can have alternate translations.

I had this same type of dispute in another thread. In a disputed verse the Hebrew says 'shame contempt eternal'. When it was translated it said 'shame and eternal contempt'. So was only the contempt eternal or should it be 'eternal shameful contempt'? Was the shame temporary while the contempt was eternal? Hebrew has an 'and' but it was NOT used in this passage but the translators put it in to conform to English standards. Hebrew also didn't have things like commas to create a pause between two things like 'shame, contempt' and apply the 'eternal' to both of them.

[Yahu]

Notice how Jesus used the word "YE".

BTW, I don't think Yeshua spoke Old English.

[Black Sheep]

Clearly it must be. He was addressing the crowds there at the time, which is why he said "This" generation. If he was talking about any other generation he would have said "That generation". If "this" is really referring to "that" then God's word contains bad grammar. I doubt God would use bad grammar.

That's not the way I see it. Considering the entire context, the grammar, and especially the question the disciples asked, I think the only logical understanding of 'this generation' is the one Jesus is talking about, not the generation of the people he is talking to. The generation living when He returns....is the correct answer.

There are several discrepancies in all the Christian interpretations of Mt. 24. Logic can go a long way in understanding the chapter. It's a time consuming study and I accept the evidence I find and nothing else.

Someone said,

Let's trust that the son of God is using good not bad grammar.

Well then you have to look at it. Did you know there are three different words for WORLD and three different words for END in Mathew 24? The correct rendering of those three words, as well as looking at the question Jesus is answering, say's it all. Those words also debunk the Preterist/Historical view. The context of the chapter MUST be understood as an answer to this three part question.

1. When will these things be. (not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.)
2. What will be the sign of thy coming.
3. What will be the sign of the end of the world.

Right after the disciples asked these questions...

Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
So He immediately warns people to beware of deception. About what? The signs that precede His return!

You would have to completely change the meanings of words in the scripture for this to be the case. However all the standard translations talk about a generation not a nation. Why would these professionals have it wrong, while those amateurs who wish to use the meaning "nation" have it right?

You would have to change the entire meaning of the Chapter. There's no question the entire chapter is an over a 30 verse response about the signs of His return and the stones being thrown down and...TIME OF THE END.

The English language really is a bit insufficient interpreting Greek. Greek and Hebrew often uses several words to define one or two English words. And it is acceptable English grammar to use EITHER the word THIS OR THAT.

You have to look at the meaning of EVERY word in the Greek Lexicon AND the interlinear. Look at the context and the verses just before 'this Gen...

Verse 29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Jesus is talking about the time immediately after tribulation. AND It really is a futile argument for one to claim the other things Jesus mentions already took place.

Verse 30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

We know this didn't happen either. And he's not saying the sign of his return is for the people or generation he's talking to, it's the generation sees and the sign endures the tribulation.

Verse 31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

An angel sounding the trumpet proves that this is about end-time events.
Verse 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Verse 33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

If need be I can explain this fig tree illustration.

VERSE 34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Jesus uses the word 'THIS' because 'this' is the generation that will see and endure what he is talking about.

The word THIS is better understood in some verses as "even so" even as" and "so thus." And in some translations "these" and "the same." The antecedent to "this Generation" in verse 34 is ALL of what Jesus said between verses 4-33.

Look at it this way...

"Even so, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Vines says about the word THIS...

Even (Adverb, Etc.), Even As, Even So:
or houto, "so, thus," is frequently rendered "even so," e.g., Mat 7:17; 12:45; 18:14; 23:28; "so" in 1Cr 11:12; 1Th 2:4, RV.

Verse 35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Jesus is talking TO the people in front of him about the people who will SEE these things. Not ONCE does the passage suggest Jesus is deviating from talking about "the end" or any other generation other than the one that sees and endures what Jesus said about...
THE END

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 24 by Black Sheep]

Very nice post.


However, Jesus is effectively asked three different questions (or rather one question with three distinct features)

1) When will "these things" be?

2) What will be the sign or your presence (parousia)

3) The sign of the "conclusion of the system of things"

(Mat 24:3 NWT)


To understand what is being referred to as "these things" we have but to look back at what Jesus had said previously, namely he spoke about the destruction of the Jewish temple in response to the disciples admiration of the temple structure. Jesus masterfully interwove the answers to all THREE aspects of the question but undoubtedly one referred to the situation in the first century (in Luke's parallel account we have Jesus literally referring to Jérusalem being encamped by armies and his warning that his (Jesus') disciples get out of the city).

So Jesus was asked about three things, two of those events were definitely future (even if the askers were not aware how FAR into the future that would eventually be) but one was to do with events in the immediate future (it turns out only 40 or so years after this discourse took place).


JW

[newnature]

[Replying to post 24 by Black Sheep]

Very nice post.


However, Jesus is effectively asked three different questions (or rather one question with three distinct features)

1) When will "these things" be?

2) What will be the sign or your presence (parousia)

3) The sign of the "conclusion of the system of things"

(Mat 24:3 NWT)


To understand what is being referred to as "these things" we have put to look to what Jesus had said previously, namely he spoke about the destruction of the Jewish temple in response to the disciples admiration of the temple structure. Jesus masterfully interwove the answers to all THREE aspects of the question but undoubtedly one referred to the situation in the first century (in Luke's parallel account we have Jesus literally referring to Jérusalem being encamped by armies and his warning that his (Jesus') disciples get out of the city).

So Jesus was asked about three things, two of those events were definitely future (even if the askers were not aware how FAR into the future that would eventually be) but one was to do with events in the immediate future (it turns out only 40 or so years after this discourse took place).


JW

After the Body of Christ is lifted off the earth, the whole period of the Day of Yahweh is called the final meeting of the ages, or the Greek word “sunteleia�; but, the crisis in which it culminates is called the end of the age, or the Greek word “telos.� These two Greek words are rendered “end� in the New Testament, but the use of these two words must be carefully distinguished. 


Sunteleia denotes a finishing or ending together, or in conjunction with other things. It implies that several things meet together, and reach their end during the same period; whereas telos is the point of time at the end of that period. The sign of the telos is the setting up of “the abomination of desolation� spoken of by Daniel the prophet. 


Thus the telos, those who endure to this, the same shall be saved, and will be among the overcomers specially referred to in these seven letters during the Great Tribulation; to whom these promises are made, and to whom they peculiarly refer.

[Black Sheep]

[Replying to post 25 by JehovahsWitness]

However, Jesus is effectively asked three different questions (or rather one question with three distinct features)

1) When will "these things" be?

2) What will be the sign or your presence (parousia)

3) The sign of the "conclusion of the system of things"

(Mat 24:3 NWT)

Some people say it's a two part question.
Here's a question. It's said that Mathew was written between 80 and 90 AD. Do you think Mathew would have written his gospel THE WAY HE DID knowing the the temple was destroyed? Sometime I have to wonder about 'when' these books were written?

Now. I'm sure someone is going to say that this...

"There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

..has already passed.


And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

The Wailing Wall being thrown down could be a prophecy that birth pangs are here. Jesus wasn't just talking about the Temple because Jesus said, "See you not ALL these things?

"The wall falls when Muslims invade and probably take East Jerusalem and make the Dome of the Rock the headquarters of their world Caliphate. This is where the man of sin will authenticate himself. If I'm interpreting Daniel correctly, 3 1/2 years after the wall falls the anti-Christ reveals and authenticates himself in the Dome of the Rock area. I also think the 'daily sacrifice' mentioned in Daniel is the end of Jewish prayers at the wall caused by its destruction.

I could be wrong. I think I'm right. At least "I think" and I think that proves the existence of GOD.

It's a hidden sign that people have missed. These are the stones Jesus is talking about.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sit ... So#imgrc=_

[postroad]

I am getting a picture of the second coming progressing in such slow motion that Jesus qualifies the signs by stating that not everyone who first witnesses it will live to see the end of it.

Or perhaps it means that nobody will be allowed to die until all the signs are fulfilled?

[newnature]

I am getting a picture of the second coming progressing in such slow motion that Jesus qualifies the signs by stating that not everyone who first witnesses it will live to see the end of it.

Or perhaps it means that nobody will be allowed to die until all the signs are fulfilled?

Before that kingdom could be realized, there was a prophetic event that had to take place first. The way Jesus taught has special application to that tribulation period to those people who were being taught to pray in this manner. This will be a very heartfelt prayer during the tribulation period. During the time of Jacob’s trouble, the Israelites will be under tremendous persecution from the antichrist. He will be putting Israelites to death for their faith. The Israelites will be praying at that time, “thy kingdom come� the promised earthly kingdom to be set up right here on earth, because the only hope of deliverance for the believing Israelites at that time, will be the coming of the king and setting up of the earthly kingdom. 


“Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven� is a divine definition of the millennium. The kingdom is when the will of Yahweh is carried out in the earth to the same degree it is carried out in heaven. The Israelites have an earthly hope, they were promised the earth forever. At the time when Israel will be facing the wrath of Satan - the time that Israel was being prepared for when they were being taught how to pray - Satan will have been kicked out of the heaven and cast down to the earth and Yahweh’s will, will indeed be being done in the realm where Satan has just been cast out. 


This prayer is appropriate for the Israelites of that day, they will be praying at that time just as the disciples had been taught to pray. It is recited in churches across the country in our day. It is recited as though it is a prayer for today. While we are not to use vain repetition, it is recited like vain repetition as people stand up and uttering together. At the time this prayer was being taught to pray “our Father� meant that you recognized, if you were an Israelite, that you had a covenant relationship with Yahweh; you were his children. 


These saints of the earthly kingdom program will be praying in the day “Give us this day our daily bread.� They will be worrying about that day, not the next day as that earthly kingdom becomes a reality for those Israelites. “Debtors� Israel’s status as a nation above all nations depended on this very thing. The believers of Israel will be seeking forgiveness in respect to their willingness to forgive. Yahweh will not restore that nation to a place of national prominence above all nations of the earth until they adhere to the exhortation, forgive us our sins as WE (corporately) are willing to forgive those who have sinned against us. 


There will be a people for Yahweh on the earth during those eventful years, and Yahweh indeed has provided for their instruction, and warning, and encouragement, in the second and third chapters of the Book of Revelation. Right at the beginning, they are the first subjects of Divine remembrance, provision, and care. Their needs must be first provided for, before anything else is recorded of the things which John saw; and there they will find what is specially written for their learning. But those readers will be at once be reminded of the various stages of their own past history, and they will find in almost every sentence some allusion to the circumstances in which they will find themselves as described in these seven letters.

[OnceConvinced]

It didn't occur in the generation He was talking to therefore it could NOT have been that generation it was referencing.

Preterists (who take the bible very seriously) would disagree with you though and tell you those events DID take place within that generation.

Since Yeshua was sinless and He didn't lie, the error in interpretation MUST be with the translation or your understanding of it.

But I take the words at face value as they appear on the page.

Preterists (who are Christians) would tell you those events most definitely happened and come up with biblical as well as historical evidence to prove it.

The only other option is that scripture is not authoritative and that is not an option in this subforum. We have to take scripture as authoritative to even debate in this subforum.

Or it could be that these events did indeed happen, just not in the way you expected them to happen.

But even though this subforum allows the bible to be taken as authoritative, does that mean we have to take it as the infallible word of God? Does it mean that all the words become divine and all the prophecies true? Does it mean we have to acknowledge that Jesus knew the future?

The fact is Paul believed all these things were happening in his life time. So does that mean Paul was mistaken?