Direct Word of God ?

[Skyangel]

I have heard some people say the Torah and Quran are the direct words of God/Allah and the bible is not. Others say the bible is the direct word of God and the Quran is not.

Since the Torah is contained in the bible, does that make the first five books of the bible the direct word of God and the rest of the bible not the direct word of God?

The Torah is the first five books of Moses.

Here is just one discrepancy between the Torah and the Quran.

From the Torah http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0122.htm
Genesis 22 is the story about Abraham offering Isaac on the altar to God.

According to the Quran, and Islamic beliefs apparently it was Ishmael who was offered as a sacrifice on the altar.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... ifice.html

If the Torah and the Quran are contradicting each other about which son was placed on the altar, how can they both be the direct word of God? Is Allah confused or causing confusion since Allah made a mistake in the Quran by not agreeing with Himself in the Torah?

Jews and Christians agree it was Isaac who was laid on the altar because the Torah and many years of historical tradition say so.

Thousands of years later a man called Muhammed comes along and makes a huge mistake and in his story as he rewrites the stories of the Torah and suddenly a bunch of his followers decide Mohammeds book the Quran is the word of Allah and not of Muhammed.
Is the direct word of Allah ( Ouran ) basically saying " Oopps I made a mistake and now I will fix my mistake through Muhammed?
The direct word of God ought not contradict itself so how can anyone reconcile this blatant contradiction between the Torah and the Quran and claim both are the direct word of Allah? This is totally illogical.

The belief in Islam claims the bible is a book written by man and man made the mistake but they don't think the Quran was written by man Yet they still believe the Torah was written by God yet the story is in the Torah as well as in the bible and the Torah story agrees with the bible story not with the Quran, so which is true and which is false? Do the math.

Was it Isaac or Ishmael on the altar to God/Allah? or can't Allah make up his mind or was Muhammed deluded and deceived by a jinn parading as an angel?

Some people might think the name of the son is not important but it is if you are claiming the Torah and the Quran are both the direct word of Allah and have no mistakes or contradictions.

[Murad]

Do Muslims believe their good and bad deeds are measured and weighed against each other and whether you end up in heaven or hell depends on whether your good deeds outweigh your bad ones or vice versa?

Exactly right.

So how has the Quran taken away any confusion amongst them?

The Quran has nothing to do with the companions of Muhammad, that is a political issue.

Has it ever occurred to you that you are the one who is blatantly wrong? You have no idea what Moses would do. You are merely projecting your own thoughts and actions onto him.

Well using logic and reasoning, Christianity contradicts the first 2 commandments of Moses.

I question myself constantly and that is why I know I am correct in what I believe and I know exactly why I believe what I do and why it logically makes sense to me.

Its not about questioning yourself, its about questioning your belief, but in your case you are God so yeh it makes sense....

Was it a Muslim university where they indoctrinate you with what they want you to believe?

LOL, i went to the university of western sydney. I studied Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Ancient religions such as greek and egyption mythology etc. etc..
Islam by far is the most logical.

My great great great grandchildren who will live in a million years from now also exist today in my foreknowledge.

Oh really? Lets conduct a logic test.
What will your great great great great great child's name be?
If you can answer = Yes he/she does exist in your foreknowledge
If you cant answer = You are wrong.

The Spirit of man is eternal. It exists in God at all times.

You are blatently wrong, man does not exist in God.

Jesus alone is not God any more than I am God, yet Jesus is always in God and God is in Him in the same way Jesus is in me and I am in Him and the Father is also in me and I am in the Father.

Polythiest...

If Jesus is the word/command " Be" then so am I.
I am the same as what Jesus is in this world. We are one.

You are no command at all, you are the sperm that reached the egg.
Adam and Eve was the command, Jesus was the command.
God did not say "Be!" and your mother gave birth to you.

He still does. He is humanity and humanity are gods who are made in the image of God.

God is not humanity and humanity is not God.
That is completely illogical, even an athiest who has no position on God will say that is irrational.

Yes, it is all the people that God created in His own image. Males and females created He them in His own image.

Let me conduct another logic test.
If i create a robot with my image, will that make it a human? NO.
BUT it can share my characteristics, but it in no way does it give the robot my essence.

When you understand that God is in the mind of every man and in all his thoughts and mankind cannot even think without God then you might understand that God did indeed create all languages of the world through mankind.

I dont think 'understand' is the word id use, 'accept' instead, because your concept makes no sense at all.
God is all knowing that does not make him omnipresent.
Mankind can think without God, take athiests for example, some of the worlds most intelligent scientists are athiests, its called a brain, and god gave it to us so we can use it.

Where do you think your thoughts come from ?

The Cerebrum part of the brain, thought and memory can also be altered by electric currents which 'shock' flow of current.

I am His literal daughter who is created in His literal image.

Again refer to my logic test, and also refer to a dictionary on the meaning of "Image". Paper can be made to look like anything with the help of a pencil! That in no way changes the essense of the paper.

Are you a literal son or daughter of God who was literally and physically as well as spiritually created by God in His image or not ?

I am a decendent of Adam who was directly created by "Be!"
The Quran tells us:

Your Lord said to the angels, "I am going to create a human being out of clay. When I have formed him and breathed My Spirit into him, fall down in prostration to him!" (Quran 38:71-72)

We can have the characteristics of God in the sense of emotion, right and wrong etc.. But that definetly does not make us Gods which is what you have stated.
There is only 1 God, that is the God of Abraham.

Are you telling me the words "May Allah destroy them" is not referring to Jews and Christians like it appears to be?

It is referring to Christians and Jews. Its admonishing them, with "May Allah destroy them", giving the reader emotion from the text.

Maybe a person is less confused if they can read the Arabic version? Maybe only Arabs are less confused?

Most likely yes, Arabic is the Quran in its most perfect state, whereas translation slightly alters the meanings of some words.

Is the word begotten in Psalm 2:7 also a fabrication?

Absolutely:
The fabrication of the Begotten Son

The word begotten has been removed from all Gospels by the same bible scholars as fabrication after they realized that this word does not exist in the most ancient manuscript. -RSV

"Begotten" is a concoction, a fabrication and it is yet another proof that the bible was altered from its original state.

Regardless of whether you believe it or not, the bible and the Quran were written by the hand of man, regardless of who or what inspired the words in them or revealed the words to the writers. Mankind wrote them. Do you understand that?

Ofcourse i do.
But earlier on you said God wrote John, ill take that as sarcasm.

It did not restore monotheism since the Jews and Christians were monotheistic before Islam was ever invented.

The Jews were monotheistic, but they too shifted from perfect monotheism when they labelled nezra the "Son of God"

The early Christians were confused, some believed Jesus was divine, some believed Jesus was not divine, and thus there was alot of debate on the "Oneness" of God. Later on doctrines such as the "Trinity" was created so the bible does not contradict itself.

It does not show the true identity of Jesus since it simply lowered Jesus to the same status as any other prophet instead of giving Him the same honor that God gave Him above all principalities and powers.

Thats right, Jesus is a prophet and messenger. Jesus is not God like Paul believed he was.

(John 5:30)
"I can do nothing on my own authority"

Jesus showed His own true identity and I prefer to believe Jesus Himself than anyone else.

Wow did i miss something, did Jesus write the Bible?
No he didnt, so you are not believing in Jesus himself, sure you can think you are but technically and logically you are not.
You are believing in anonymous authors with the touch of Paul.


Muhammad and Jesus are both human, they both die

"Every soul shall have a taste of death: And only on the Day of Judgement shall you be paid your full recompense. Only he who is saved from the Fire and admitted to the Garden will have succeeded. For the life of this world is but goods of chattels of deception" (al-Imran 3:185)

Jesus is not dead yet, because he has another job to do, and he will do it in his second comming.

And he (Jesus) shall undoubtedly be a sign for the coming of the Hour of Judgment. Therefore, have no doubt about the Hour but follow Me. This is a straight way (Quran, 43: 57-61)

[Misty]

There is not the slightest shred of evidence the deity, assuming it exists, has ever communicated directly with humans. I believe all holy books including the Bible are entirely human creations without any divine input.

[Defender of Truth]

Obviously some believe it and some do not.

Of course, but since this is in the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma subforum,
it is a given that it is true.

[Defender of Truth]

I believe all holy books including the Bible are entirely human creations without any divine input.

Again, the purpose of this subforum is to discuss what the Bible means, not to discuss whether the Bible is credible.

[Skyangel]

So how has the Quran taken away any confusion amongst them?

The Quran has nothing to do with the companions of Muhammad, that is a political issue.

Religious division among sects has nothing to with politics but with interpretation and religious doctrines. However, people will obviously believe what they want.

Has it ever occurred to you that you are the one who is blatantly wrong? You have no idea what Moses would do. You are merely projecting your own thoughts and actions onto him.

Well using logic and reasoning, Christianity contradicts the first 2 commandments of Moses.

I can use logic and reason to show how Islam also contradicts the first commandment.

I question myself constantly and that is why I know I am correct in what I believe and I know exactly why I believe what I do and why it logically makes sense to me.

Its not about questioning yourself, its about questioning your belief, but in your case you are God so yeh it makes sense....

You are obviously misinterpreting me.

Was it a Muslim university where they indoctrinate you with what they want you to believe?

LOL, i went to the university of western sydney. I studied Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Ancient religions such as greek and egyption mythology etc. etc..
Islam by far is the most logical.

Thank you for sharing your personal opinion.

My great great great grandchildren who will live in a million years from now also exist today in my foreknowledge.

Oh really? Lets conduct a logic test.
What will your great great great great great child's name be?
If you can answer = Yes he/she does exist in your foreknowledge
If you cant answer = You are wrong.

Their names will be what their parents choose their names to be and it makes no difference if I can tell you their names or not because you will never live long enough to see if I am right or wrong anyway so your logic test is obviously illogical since there is no way you will be able to prove my answers correct or incorrect.

The Spirit of man is eternal. It exists in God at all times.

You are blatently wrong, man does not exist in God.

You might not but I do.
Can you prove me wrong with bible scriptures?
The bible is the authority in this forum and it says God is in all and through all. Jesus was in the Father and the Father was in Him. ( John 14:10)
I am in Jesus and Jesus is in me and since Jesus is in the Father and the Father in Him, so am I. (John 17:23)

Jesus alone is not God any more than I am God, yet Jesus is always in God and God is in Him in the same way Jesus is in me and I am in Him and the Father is also in me and I am in the Father.

Polythiest...

I am no more a polytheist than a believer in one family is a polytheist because they believe there are many members in one family. The family is still one family. The problem is that many people perceive God as one person instead of one family. That is why they are so confused with the different manifestations of God. They confine God to one finite being instead of understanding that God is all and in all and is infinite.

If Jesus is the word/command " Be" then so am I.
I am the same as what Jesus is in this world. We are one.

You are no command at all, you are the sperm that reached the egg.
Adam and Eve was the command, Jesus was the command.
God did not say "Be!" and your mother gave birth to you.

It is a miracle that I exist at all since my physical father wanted my physical mother to have an abortion. God made sure that did not happen.
I am a child of God who is born of the flesh as well as born of the Spirit.
( John 3:6-7 ) I have been born twice.

He still does. He is humanity and humanity are gods who are made in the image of God.

God is not humanity and humanity is not God.
That is completely illogical, even an athiest who has no position on God will say that is irrational.

I don't care how irrational it sounds to unbelievers, It is the Truth that God manifests Himself through people. I know because I am in Him and He is in me. I know by experience.

Yes, it is all the people that God created in His own image. Males and females created He them in His own image.

Let me conduct another logic test.
If i create a robot with my image, will that make it a human? NO.
BUT it can share my characteristics, but it in no way does it give the robot my essence.

People are not created machines so your comparison is illogical. You cannot place a spirit in a robot to cause the robot to think and feel anything for you.
You could create a child in your image though. However, God places the spirit in the human. You cannot do that.

When you understand that God is in the mind of every man and in all his thoughts and mankind cannot even think without God then you might understand that God did indeed create all languages of the world through mankind.

I dont think 'understand' is the word id use, 'accept' instead, because your concept makes no sense at all.
God is all knowing that does not make him omnipresent.
Mankind can think without God, take athiests for example, some of the worlds most intelligent scientists are athiests, its called a brain, and god gave it to us so we can use it.

God also gave Life to man and without life man cannot think at all so any thoughts in man, good and bad, come directly from God who gives us life in the first place and can take away that life just as easily.

Where do you think your thoughts come from ?

The Cerebrum part of the brain, thought and memory can also be altered by electric currents which 'shock' flow of current.

Hopefully God will shock you into reailty one day and you will realise that without Him you can do absolutely nothing. He gives you life and can take it away just as easily

I am His literal daughter who is created in His literal image.

Again refer to my logic test, and also refer to a dictionary on the meaning of "Image". Paper can be made to look like anything with the help of a pencil! That in no way changes the essense of the paper.

Your logic tests have proved to be illogical and bad comparisons. Try comparing the living with the living instead of comparing the living with machines and other inanimate objects unless you think you are some kind of inanimate object or machine which was invented by man?

Are you a literal son or daughter of God who was literally and physically as well as spiritually created by God in His image or not ?

I am a decendent of Adam who was directly created by "Be!"
The Quran tells us:

Your Lord said to the angels, "I am going to create a human being out of clay. When I have formed him and breathed My Spirit into him, fall down in prostration to him!" (Quran 38:71-72)

We can have the characteristics of God in the sense of emotion, right and wrong etc.. But that definetly does not make us Gods which is what you have stated.
There is only 1 God, that is the God of Abraham.

Since God created man from clay, He did not just say "Be" did he?
Do you think God just says a word and the word magically appears into existence like some magician would say "Let there be a rabbit" and and suddenly a rabbit appears out of thin air?
It seems to me that this is the concept most people have of the words "Be" or "Let there be" They seem to apply some "magical" concept to it rather than a reality.

Are you telling me the words "May Allah destroy them" is not referring to Jews and Christians like it appears to be?

It is referring to Christians and Jews. Its admonishing them, with "May Allah destroy them", giving the reader emotion from the text.

What about all the Muslims who deny the Truth of God through His only begotten Son ? May Allah destroy them too?

Maybe a person is less confused if they can read the Arabic version? Maybe only Arabs are less confused?

Most likely yes, Arabic is the Quran in its most perfect state, whereas translation slightly alters the meanings of some words.

So anyone who is not an Arab and can't read Arabic is basically condemned and can't know what the Quran is really saying since it loses meaning in any other language?

Is the word begotten in Psalm 2:7 also a fabrication?

Absolutely:
The fabrication of the Begotten Son

You have no concept of what it means to be begotten by God, do you ?

The word begotten has been removed from all Gospels by the same bible scholars as fabrication after they realized that this word does not exist in the most ancient manuscript. -RSV

"Begotten" is a concoction, a fabrication and it is yet another proof that the bible was altered from its original state.

The Psalms are obviously not in the gospels of the NT. ( Psalm 2:7 )
Hebrew word " yalad" translated as begotten and quoted in Acts 13:33, Hebrews 1:5, Hebrerws 5:5 which are also not the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.

Regardless of whether you believe it or not, the bible and the Quran were written by the hand of man, regardless of who or what inspired the words in them or revealed the words to the writers. Mankind wrote them. Do you understand that?

Ofcourse i do.
But earlier on you said God wrote John, ill take that as sarcasm.

I did not say that, I said it could be possible.
If you think the Quran was written by God, so is the bible written by God since both books were obviously written in the same way, by the hand of man. You reject the bible as being inspired by God but you wish to believe ther Quran is inspired by God.

It did not restore monotheism since the Jews and Christians were monotheistic before Islam was ever invented.

The Jews were monotheistic, but they too shifted from perfect monotheism when they labelled nezra the "Son of God"

The early Christians were confused, some believed Jesus was divine, some believed Jesus was not divine, and thus there was alot of debate on the "Oneness" of God. Later on doctrines such as the "Trinity" was created so the bible does not contradict itself.

All children of God are sons of God. God manifests Himself through all His children and all the rest of His creation.

It does not show the true identity of Jesus since it simply lowered Jesus to the same status as any other prophet instead of giving Him the same honor that God gave Him above all principalities and powers.

Thats right, Jesus is a prophet and messenger. Jesus is not God like Paul believed he was.

(John 5:30)
"I can do nothing on my own authority"

Paul never said Jesus was God.
The Father was in Jesus and Jesus was in the Father.

Jesus showed His own true identity and I prefer to believe Jesus Himself than anyone else.

Wow did i miss something, did Jesus write the Bible?
No he didnt, so you are not believing in Jesus himself, sure you can think you are but technically and logically you are not.
You are believing in anonymous authors with the touch of Paul.

The bible was inspired by God. It makes no difference who the writers were. They were Holy men of God who were moved and inspired to write what God told them to write. What they wrote makes perfect sense to me.

Muhammad and Jesus are both human, they both die

"Every soul shall have a taste of death: And only on the Day of Judgement shall you be paid your full recompense. Only he who is saved from the Fire and admitted to the Garden will have succeeded. For the life of this world is but goods of chattels of deception" (al-Imran 3:185)

Jesus is not dead yet, because he has another job to do, and he will do it in his second comming.

And he (Jesus) shall undoubtedly be a sign for the coming of the Hour of Judgment. Therefore, have no doubt about the Hour but follow Me. This is a straight way (Quran, 43: 57-61)

You are right that Jesus is not dead since He died and rose again. Christianity is based on a living saviour not a dead prophet.
Since you seem to believe Jesus is not dead, where is He today in your opinion?

Jesus has no other job to do since He finished the work the Father gave Him to do.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

The hour of judgment was the hour of His death on the cross.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

[Murad]

Religious division among sects has nothing to with politics but with interpretation and religious doctrines. However, people will obviously believe what they want.

Study Shiite's and Sunni's, and you will see the differences are political.

I can use logic and reason to show how Islam also contradicts the first commandment.

Please do...

You are obviously misinterpreting me.

No i am not, you clearly said over and over again that we are Gods and that we exist in God, how am i misinterpreting you?

“In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against God, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every – one that is on the earth? For to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For God hath power over all things.�[Qur'an 5:17]

My question is to you, if the Father wanted to destroy Jesus the son of Mary, who has the power to stop him?

Thank you for sharing your personal opinion.

No problem anytime.

Their names will be what their parents choose their names to be and it makes no difference if I can tell you their names or not because you will never live long enough to see if I am right or wrong anyway so your logic test is obviously illogical since there is no way you will be able to prove my answers correct or incorrect.

And hence, they dont exist in your foreknowledge.

You might not but I do.
Can you prove me wrong with bible scriptures?
The bible is the authority in this forum and it says God is in all and through all. Jesus was in the Father and the Father was in Him. ( John 14:10)
I am in Jesus and Jesus is in me and since Jesus is in the Father and the Father in Him, so am I. (John 17:23)

You obviously love quoting from John, have you read this thread before:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=14527

....they are so confused with the different manifestations of God.

Im not confused at all, it has been clear since prophet Moses that there is 1 God.
Not "1 family of God"

It is a miracle that I exist at all since my physical father wanted my physical mother to have an abortion. God made sure that did not happen.

That does not mean anything, America being a majority Christian, has one of the highest abortion rates in the world.

I don't care how irrational it sounds to unbelievers, It is the Truth that God manifests Himself through people. I know because I am in Him and He is in me. I know by experience.

Ok, thanks for making that clear, its obvious that your truth will sound logical only to you.

People are not created machines so your comparison is illogical.

EXACTLY.
The same way God is not human.

God places the spirit in the human. You cannot do that.

Exactly cause we are not God! Checkmate!

God also gave Life to man and without life man cannot think at all so any thoughts in man, good and bad, come directly from God who gives us life in the first place and can take away that life just as easily.

That is generaizing to the core.
God gave us the Sun, the Sun creates life on earth... why on earth would i link that to human thought.
Your statements seem to get more illogical everytime.

Hopefully God will shock you into reailty one day and you will realise that without Him you can do absolutely nothing. He gives you life and can take it away just as easily

I know that already:

It will not be in accordance with your desires, nor those of the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians), whosoever works evil, will have the recompense therof, and he will not find any protector or helper besides Allah. (4:123)

Hopefully God will shock you and you will come to accept the Prophet Muhammad, just like some Jews accepted Jesus.

Your logic tests have proved to be illogical and bad comparisons. Try comparing the living with the living instead of comparing the living with machines and other inanimate objects unless you think you are some kind of inanimate object or machine which was invented by man?

We die! God does not die!

Since God created man from clay, He did not just say "Be" did he?

What ever he wants, he says "Be!" and it happens.

What about all the Muslims who deny the Truth of God through His only begotten Son ? May Allah destroy them too?

You are denying the truth of Muhammad, we are denying the falsehood created by Paul.

The word begotten has been removed from all Gospels by the same bible scholars as fabrication after they realized that this word does not exist in the most ancient manuscript.

John A-V {3:16} For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (This word does not exist anymore in all Gospels in the RSV), so Jesus is not any more begotten by God where we find others still alleged to be begotten sons of God according to the bible. examples:

David was a begotten son of God long before Jesus (according to the bible). Psalms A-V {2:7} I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Israel was a begotten son of God long before Jesus (according to the bible). Exodus A-V {4:22} And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel[is] my son, [even] my firstborn:

So the term Son of God in the language of the Jews means godly person not actual son of God and does not mean divinity at all, examples:

All Jews are sons of God (according to the bible). Psalms A-V {82:6} I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

All those who follow the spirit of God are sons of God (according to the bible). Romans A-V {8:14} For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

So anyone who is not an Arab and can't read Arabic is basically condemned and can't know what the Quran is really saying since it loses meaning in any other language?

Its like the Gospels, in Greek they are more original.
The Torah is more original in hebrew.

You have no concept of what it means to be begotten by God, do you ?

It depends what perspective you look at it.

The word begotten has been removed from all Gospels by the same bible scholars as fabrication after they realized that this word does not exist in the most ancient manuscript. -RSV

The Psalms are obviously not in the gospels of the NT. ( Psalm 2:7 )
Hebrew word " yalad" translated as begotten and quoted in Acts 13:33, Hebrews 1:5, Hebrerws 5:5 which are also not the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.

Yes so why dont we worship David and Israel, they were both begotten sons according to the OT. Because its illogical and there is only 1 God, the God that Moses said is 1.

You reject the bible as being inspired by God but you wish to believe ther Quran is inspired by God.

Yes i reject the current bible and torah, although some parts of the bible feel holy to me when i read it, e.g. Psalms and parts of Mark.

All children of God are sons of God. God manifests Himself through all His children and all the rest of His creation.

Yes we are all sons of God. But we are not Gods.

Paul never said Jesus was God.

Paul says so, in Acts 20:28, "Take heed therefore unto yourselves...to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

The bible was inspired by God. It makes no difference who the writers were.

It makes a huge difference.
Theres a difference between blind belief and true belief.
I know where my source of belief comes from, you dont.
I could say some man with down-syndrome & mental disorder wrote John and it could be a possibility. Do you agree?
Not that i believe in that to be true, some parts of the bible are obviously holy.

You are right that Jesus is not dead since He died and rose again.

He never died in the first place.
Actually what do you know about the New Testament besides the NIV translation?
The most ancient hebrew manuscripts give different versions of events of the alleged crucifiction.
You will be suprised on how many people found Islam when they studied the authenticity of the Hebrew manuscripts.

Since you seem to believe Jesus is not dead, where is He today in your opinion?

In heaven or in heaven next to God.

"God raised him up unto the himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise."[Qur'an 4:158]

Jesus has no other job to do since He finished the work the Father gave Him to do.

You are wrong, and if you live to see his second comming you will witness his true mission.

[Skyangel]

You are obviously misinterpreting me.

No i am not, you clearly said over and over again that we are Gods and that we exist in God, how am i misinterpreting you?

The fact that God's children are all gods does not make God more than one God.
It is like saying one family is made up of many families. It is still ultimately all one family no matter how many times the family divides and multiplies.
I perceive God as one family not as one person or one individual being. Understand?

“In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against God, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every – one that is on the earth? For to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For God hath power over all things.�[Qur'an 5:17]

My question is to you, if the Father wanted to destroy Jesus the son of Mary, who has the power to stop him?

No man has any power to stop the inevitable from happening. All men will inevitably die. Jesus was never destroyed. He died and rose again.

Their names will be what their parents choose their names to be and it makes no difference if I can tell you their names or not because you will never live long enough to see if I am right or wrong anyway so your logic test is obviously illogical since there is no way you will be able to prove my answers correct or incorrect.

And hence, they don't exist in your foreknowledge.

You cannot prove or disprove what exists in my foreknowledge. I know what I know. You are merely speculating.

You might not but I do.
Can you prove me wrong with bible scriptures?
The bible is the authority in this forum and it says God is in all and through all. Jesus was in the Father and the Father was in Him. ( John 14:10)
I am in Jesus and Jesus is in me and since Jesus is in the Father and the Father in Him, so am I. (John 17:23)

You obviously love quoting from John, have you read this thread before:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=14527

Can you prove me wrong with bible scriptures or not?

....they are so confused with the different manifestations of God.

Im not confused at all, it has been clear since prophet Moses that there is 1 God.
Not "1 family of God"

Suit yourself, but the fact of the matter is the word "elohiym" translated as God is plural not singular in Hebrew.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... H430&t=KJV

People are not created machines so your comparison is illogical.

EXACTLY.
The same way God is not human.

God is a Spirit and people are spiritual beings who are created in the image of the spirit of God. Does that make things clearer for you?

God places the spirit in the human. You cannot do that.

Exactly cause we are not God! Checkmate!

Yet we can still create new people in whom God places His breath of Life. God does the miracle of creation of human beings inside other human beings. Human beings are the clay or the dust of the earth.

God also gave Life to man and without life man cannot think at all so any thoughts in man, good and bad, come directly from God who gives us life in the first place and can take away that life just as easily.

That is generaizing to the core.
God gave us the Sun, the Sun creates life on earth... why on earth would i link that to human thought.
Your statements seem to get more illogical everytime.

Only to those who do not understand how all things fit together in the overall picture.

It will not be in accordance with your desires, nor those of the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians), whosoever works evil, will have the recompense therof, and he will not find any protector or helper besides Allah. (4:123)

Hopefully God will shock you and you will come to accept the Prophet Muhammad, just like some Jews accepted Jesus.

Why would I accept a false prophet who denies the Truth of God and deceives the world?

Your logic tests have proved to be illogical and bad comparisons. Try comparing the living with the living instead of comparing the living with machines and other inanimate objects unless you think you are some kind of inanimate object or machine which was invented by man?

We die! God does not die!

The flesh of God dies daily since it was created to die. The Spirit of God lives for ever.

Since God created man from clay, He did not just say "Be" did he?

What ever he wants, he says "Be!" and it happens.

Where do you see God saying "Be" today and it happens?
Are you suggesting things just regularly appear out of thin air like magic or has God stopped saying "Be"?

What about all the Muslims who deny the Truth of God through His only begotten Son ? May Allah destroy them too?

You are denying the truth of Muhammad, we are denying the falsehood created by Paul.

The word begotten has been removed from all Gospels by the same bible scholars as fabrication after they realized that this word does not exist in the most ancient manuscript.

It has not been removed from the KJV. Those who wish to remove the Truth will remove it one way or another regardless of whether they remove it from a reproduction of scripture or from their hearts.

John A-V {3:16} For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (This word does not exist anymore in all Gospels in the RSV), so Jesus is not any more begotten by God where we find others still alleged to be begotten sons of God according to the bible. examples:

David was a begotten son of God long before Jesus (according to the bible). Psalms A-V {2:7} I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Israel was a begotten son of God long before Jesus (according to the bible). Exodus A-V {4:22} And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel[is] my son, [even] my firstborn:

So the term Son of God in the language of the Jews means godly person not actual son of God and does not mean divinity at all, examples:

All Jews are sons of God (according to the bible). Psalms A-V {82:6} I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

All those who follow the spirit of God are sons of God (according to the bible). Romans A-V {8:14} For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Yes they are. All who follow the Spirit of God are the sons of God and they are all begotten of God, so I have no problem with Jesus being the only begotten son of God since Jesus represents all of mankind who are in unity and have the mind of Christ. We are one.

The Psalms are obviously not in the gospels of the NT. ( Psalm 2:7 )
Hebrew word " yalad" translated as begotten and quoted in Acts 13:33, Hebrews 1:5, Hebrerws 5:5 which are also not the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.

Yes so why dont we worship David and Israel, they were both begotten sons according to the OT. Because its illogical and there is only 1 God, the God that Moses said is 1.

Because we are not to worship any individuals at all as God. The word God is plural not singular. We are not to worship any singular being at all. The Spirit of God can be in all living things at the same time. Since that is the case, if you wish to worship the Spirit as a singular being, which singular being do you worship? As soon as you do, you make an idol of that thing you perceive as a single object of worship.

You reject the bible as being inspired by God but you wish to believe ther Quran is inspired by God.

Yes i reject the current bible and torah, although some parts of the bible feel holy to me when i read it, e.g. Psalms and parts of Mark.

Do you judge holiness by the way you feel? Is that a logical way to discern holiness?

All children of God are sons of God. God manifests Himself through all His children and all the rest of His creation.

Yes we are all sons of God. But we are not Gods.

The Word of God disagrees with you.
psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

Paul never said Jesus was God.

Paul says so, in Acts 20:28, "Take heed therefore unto yourselves...to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

That depends on how you interpret it. My children are my own blood too.
God is a Spirit, can a Spirit bleed?

The bible was inspired by God. It makes no difference who the writers were.

It makes a huge difference.
Theres a difference between blind belief and true belief.
I know where my source of belief comes from, you dont.
I could say some man with down-syndrome & mental disorder wrote John and it could be a possibility. Do you agree?
Not that i believe in that to be true, some parts of the bible are obviously holy.

I prefer to believe the writers of the bible were holy men who were inspired by God just as the bible says they were. Their names are irrelevant to me. God says they were holy so they were holy as far as I am concerned. I prefer to judge the Word as it is written rather than peoples opinions about it.

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

You are right that Jesus is not dead since He died and rose again.

He never died in the first place.
Actually what do you know about the New Testament besides the NIV translation?
The most ancient hebrew manuscripts give different versions of events of the alleged crucifiction.
You will be suprised on how many people found Islam when they studied the authenticity of the Hebrew manuscripts.

I know the Word Himself. I have the Word straight from the mouth of God himself in the same way Jesus does. The Holy Spirit Himself is my teacher. Jesus died and rose again and lives in me today. Anyone who denies the bible stories about his crucifixion, death and resurrection is a liar and rejects the Truth. I am not surprised that many people are deceived. Many are on the road to destruction and very few are on the narrow way to life. I am crucified with Christ yet I live in Him.

Since you seem to believe Jesus is not dead, where is He today in your opinion?

In heaven or in heaven next to God.

"God raised him up unto the himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise."[Qur'an 4:158]

So you believe God has Jesus sitting beside Him in heaven like a son? or servant? or slave? waiting for more instructions from God? Which is it? Son, servant or slave?

Jesus has no other job to do since He finished the work the Father gave Him to do.

You are wrong, and if you live to see his second comming you will witness his true mission.

Jesus never preached about any second coming. That is a false doctrine. Jesus preached about coming again like the lighting comes from the east and shines to the west. The sun ( lighting ) comes from the east and shines to the west daily not just twice in its lifetime. Jesus is here daily. He never left the earth.

Hebrews 13:5 [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Matt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

Go here to read what I believe about the coming again of Jesus.

[Murad]

I perceive God as one family not as one person or one individual being. Understand?

Yes thats i understand.
Although thats certainly not what Moses perceived.

No man has any power to stop the inevitable from happening. All men will inevitably die. Jesus was never destroyed. He died and rose again.

Wow you completely missed my question, please re-read and answer:

My question is to you, if the Father wanted to destroy Jesus the son of Mary, who has the power to stop him?

You cannot prove or disprove what exists in my foreknowledge. I know what I know. You are merely speculating.

I can prove what exists in your foreknowledge, i just did, you cannot give me their names, you dont know anything about them, and yet you claim they exist in your foreknowledge.
If you gave me an answer similar to this then yes i would believe you:
"My great great great great great grandsons name will be Malcolm, he will have black hair and a birthmark below his left elbow... "etc
But because that is illogical, they dont exist in your foreknowledge.

Can you prove me wrong with bible scriptures or not?

Ive done it numerous times already, but even if i do it again you would probably give me the reply "Go talk to God, he will show you the truth"...
I already have found the truth, and theres no doubt in my belief, unlike your hebrew manuscripts.

Suit yourself, but the fact of the matter is the word "elohiym" translated as God is plural not singular in Hebrew.

Yes the exact same can be said in arabic for "We", but you are looking at it at a completely different perspective to what Moses was.

These words, innaa (“Verily We�) and nahnu (“We�), and other forms of the plural, may be used by one person speaking on behalf of a group, or they may be used by one person for purposes of respect or glorification, as is done by some monarchs when they issue statements or decrees in which they say “We have decided…� etc. [This is known in English as “The Royal We� – Translator]. In such cases, only one person is speaking but the plural is used for respect. The One Who is more deserving of respect than any other is Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, so when He says in the Qur’an innaa (“Verily We�) and nahnu (“We�), it is for respect and glorification, not to indicate plurality of numbers.

God is a Spirit and people are spiritual beings who are created in the image of the spirit of God. Does that make things clearer for you?

It makes us a creation of God, i dont see the logic of calling myself God based on what you have stated.

God does the miracle of creation of human beings inside other human beings.

God does not do it, modern science and logic shows us the human reproductive system is responsible for giving birth. God wills and lets it happen, he has total control but he is not the one creating the baby.

Why would I accept a false prophet who denies the Truth of God and deceives the world?

False prophet? Says who? Your anonymous written, unverified hebrew manuscripts which differ from one another?
Or wait let me guess... Your personal conversations with God?

The flesh of God dies daily since it was created to die. The Spirit of God lives for ever.

If the Father wills, he can destroy everything including you and me and Jesus and Muhammad in our flesh and in our spirit. So we no longer exist. He is the most powerful.
But no one can destroy or kill the Father as he is the most powerful.

Where do you see God saying "Be" today and it happens?

Dont know about "Today" but i know about the past.
Adam and eve and the universe.

Are you suggesting things just regularly appear out of thin air like magic or has God stopped saying "Be"?

I lost you, what things are you talking about?

I have no problem with Jesus being the only begotten son of God since Jesus represents all of mankind who are in unity and have the mind of Christ. We are one.

Well the most ancient hebrew manuscripts surely have a problem with your ideology as "begotten" does not exist, it is mans idea, perception, opinion.

Because we are not to worship any individuals at all as God. The word God is plural not singular.

Did a group of Gods appear to Abraham or 1 God?

Do you judge holiness by the way you feel?

Not necessarily, they also share the values of Islamic Theology.

The Word of God disagrees with you.
psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

If you analyse psalm 82:6 you will see "you are children", when God says "You are Gods" he later adds "you [are] children of the most High.", meaning we are the Sons of God(Who is the most high)
Sons of God as in you and I and Jesus, not "God the Sons"

That depends on how you interpret it. My children are my own blood too.
God is a Spirit, can a Spirit bleed?

“Paul, an apostle, not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead…� (Galatians 1:1)

Since Paul did not become an apostle by men or of man, but by Jesus Christ, the obvious implication is that Jesus Christ is not just a man. He is also God.

Their names are irrelevant to me. God says they were holy so they were holy as far as I am concerned.

Does God say that or the people that wrote the text say that?

Anyone who denies the bible stories about his crucifixion, death and resurrection is a liar and rejects the Truth.

All the english bibles are derived from the hebrew manuscripts.
These differ from one another. Every knowledgable person knows this!
The most ancient manuscripts dont have verses that newer manuscripts do... I bet you didnt know that, they were later on "added", and thus it is right for me to call it a concoction.
And thus i am not rejecting the truth like you say, i am rejecting confusion and falsehood and concoction. On the contrary i am accepting the truth of the last messenger Muhammad.

I am not surprised that many people are deceived.

You are one of those decieved, you dont even have knowledge of the conflict between the numerous hebrew manuscripts that the Bible is derived from. And that the people who translated the Bible had to "Hand Pick" which manuscripts were "more likely to be" "true".

So you believe God has Jesus sitting beside Him in heaven like a son? or servant? or slave? waiting for more instructions from God? Which is it? Son, servant or slave?

Different Islamic opinions will tell you servant or slave, but i believe he is a servant because he is human and thus has the power of free will.

Jesus never preached about any second coming.

The Quran tells us:

He is a Sign of the Hour. Have no doubt about it. But follow me. This is a straight path. (Surat az-Zukhruf: 43:61)

Jesus will appear once again on earth.
Although what exactly he will do is not evident in the Quran, there are hadiths that tell us this in detail.

Jesus is here daily. He never left the earth.

This is a serious question, where is he so i can give him a visit?
Or is this your opinion spiritually?

[Skyangel]

I can use logic and reason to show how Islam also contradicts the first commandment.

Please do...

Please look here
I started a new topic for it.

[Skyangel]

Yes thats i understand.
Although thats certainly not what Moses perceived.

How do you know what Moses perceived? Did you ask him or are you merely judging according to your own perception of his words?

Wow you completely missed my question, please re-read and answer:
.....................
My question is to you, if the Father wanted to destroy Jesus the son of Mary, who has the power to stop him?

I answered your question the first time. If you cannot see the answer in the first few words then repeating the answer is not going to help.

I can prove what exists in your foreknowledge, i just did, you cannot give me their names, you dont know anything about them, and yet you claim they exist in your foreknowledge.
If you gave me an answer similar to this then yes i would believe you:
"My great great great great great grandsons name will be Malcolm, he will have black hair and a birthmark below his left elbow... "etc
But because that is illogical, they don't exist in your foreknowledge.

You can prove nothing of the sort and have proved nothing at all.
There would be no point in telling you what I know about the future because you would only think I was making things up anyway just like you made up the scenario and are trying to tell me that if I told you anything like that you would believe me. I know for sure that you would not believe me at all. Therefore you are lying when you say you would believe me unless you are so gullible to believe anything I say without questioning it? If you were that gullible in the first place you would not be questioning me at all but simply believe everything I say since I am telling you the Truth. However, since you deny the Truth, even if I told you the names of my future great great great great grandchildren, there is no way you would be able to verify it anyway unless you lived till my great great great great grandchildlren were born. Are you planning on living another 150-200 years to see if I am telling you the Truth? If I start telling people their future they will start calling me a fortune teller and I simply refuse to be turned into one.

Suit yourself, but the fact of the matter is the word "elohiym" translated as God is plural not singular in Hebrew.

Yes the exact same can be said in arabic for "We", but you are looking at it at a completely different perspective to what Moses was.

No, I am not because Moses has God in Him and is in God in the same way Jesus is and in the same way I am. We are all one in Him.
You are projecting your own perception onto Moses.

These words, innaa (“Verily We�) and nahnu (“We�), and other forms of the plural, may be used by one person speaking on behalf of a group, or they may be used by one person for purposes of respect or glorification, as is done by some monarchs when they issue statements or decrees in which they say “We have decided…� etc. [This is known in English as “The Royal We� – Translator]. In such cases, only one person is speaking but the plural is used for respect. The One Who is more deserving of respect than any other is Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, so when He says in the Qur’an innaa (“Verily We�) and nahnu (“We�), it is for respect and glorification, not to indicate plurality of numbers.

God in Jesus and Jesus in God, Moses in God and God in Moses. Elijah in God and God in Elijah, The sons of God in God and God in the sons of God are "We" I am in the Father and the Father is in me. I am in Jesus and Jesus is in me. We are one.

God does the miracle of creation of human beings inside other human beings.

God does not do it, modern science and logic shows us the human reproductive system is responsible for giving birth. God wills and lets it happen, he has total control but he is not the one creating the baby.

God placed the principles of reproduction in place to do their job and reproduce after their own kind. Are you saying God did not create the process?

Why would I accept a false prophet who denies the Truth of God and deceives the world?

False prophet? Says who? Your anonymous written, unverified hebrew manuscripts which differ from one another?
Or wait let me guess... Your personal conversations with God?

The logical fact that the Truth comes first before the deception or before that which denies the Truth. Truth cannot be denied or called a lie if it does not exist in the first place. The Quran is calling the bible a lie and denying the Truth in it not vice versa.

Because we are not to worship any individuals at all as God. The word God is plural not singular.

Did a group of Gods appear to Abraham or 1 God?

It depends which scenario you are talking about since God can appear in many forms at once and is not confined to one form or one way of appearing to anyone at all. When God manifests Himself in many forms at once, it is still one God.

“Paul, an apostle, not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead…� (Galatians 1:1)

Since Paul did not become an apostle by men or of man, but by Jesus Christ, the obvious implication is that Jesus Christ is not just a man. He is also God.

The bible is clear that Jesus is the last Adam who is a Spirit not flesh. (1Cr 15:45)
The Spirit of God was and is and always will be in the flesh of Adam. Adam's flesh dies and the Spirit lives. That Spirit is the eternal spirit of God which gives life to every man.

Their names are irrelevant to me. God says they were holy so they were holy as far as I am concerned.

Does God say that or the people that wrote the text say that?

God says so through the Holy men who wrote what He told them to write.

Anyone who denies the bible stories about his crucifixion, death and resurrection is a liar and rejects the Truth.

All the english bibles are derived from the hebrew manuscripts.
These differ from one another. Every knowledgable person knows this!
The most ancient manuscripts dont have verses that newer manuscripts do... I bet you didnt know that, they were later on "added", and thus it is right for me to call it a concoction.
And thus i am not rejecting the truth like you say, i am rejecting confusion and falsehood and concoction. On the contrary i am accepting the truth of the last messenger Muhammad.

All you are doing is choosing which "concoction" you prefer to believe. The Truth is written in the hearts of mankind. That is the Truth you need to listen to, not to anything written by the hand of man, no matter how many people claim that God said it or inspired it. To believe any man who claims to be a messenger or prophet of God is foolish since there are many false prophets in this world and always have been.
I prefer to believe God Himself. Then if I am deluded or mistaken I have no one to blame but myself and the God in my own heart to whom I listened. You can blame Muhammed or anyone else for leading you astray if you wish but remember you are the one who chose to believe him.

I am not surprised that many people are deceived.

You are one of those decieved, you dont even have knowledge of the conflict between the numerous hebrew manuscripts that the Bible is derived from. And that the people who translated the Bible had to "Hand Pick" which manuscripts were "more likely to be" "true".

I fully understand the history of the bible.
If I was deceived I would not be able to see or hear God. I would be blind like the rest of the deceived who cannot see or hear God. God Himself opened my eyes and ears to see Him and hear His voice in the same way Jesus does. It makes no difference to me what people think of that since nothing people think makes any difference to what I see and hear. God is the Truth that I see and hear.

Jesus is here daily. He never left the earth.

This is a serious question, where is he so i can give him a visit?
Or is this your opinion spiritually?

Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in him. I am also in the Father and the Father is in me.
Jesus is in me and I am in Jesus.
We are one.