The horrors of an eternal hell are clearly spelled out in the Bible. We may disagree on if we are burned or frozen or tortured or left completely alone, but the Bible is clear that hell is not something we want to experience. But how long does hell last if God is a fair and just God?
The Catholics have developed the concept of Purgatory so that while hell may be eternal, our suffering for our finite sins (non-mortal sins) can be endured for a time and then we enter heaven purged of our selfishness. Protestants feel that Jesus paid for every sin so that we will all be somehow perfected before entering heaven…although we may well receive unequal rewards forevermore dependent on how we lived when alive on the earth. Others believe that those who do not somehow attain heaven actually suffer forever in hell. Then others still believe that hell is temporary if we don’t qualify for heaven and that the soul is destroyed after it has suffered proportionately for the sins it committed against God on earth.
I personally don’t believe any of those things. If God is omniscient and omnipotent and the perfect loving parent we all wished we’d had growing up, then none of the above makes any sense. If we are punished forever in hell for a finite amount of sin on earth, that is hardly just and fair. If we are punished forever without the option for redemption, that is a great definition of the word torture…and I doubt that is what God wants for His beloved children. If God somehow reverses our sinful choices of the past so that we instantly become perfect, that interferes with our free will. If God is willing to do that, why wouldn’t He have created us without the choice to go against His will in the first place? So it seems that if God wants us all to freely accept His loving ways for our own, then threats of eternal torture and interfering with our free will are poor ways for a perfect parent to achieve that goal with 100% success.
But then what are we to do with the Biblical references to an eternal hell? Even Jesus mentions such a few times in the NT. I believe this all becomes clear from the timeless perspective of our loving Father. If it is God that indeed set the rules for us and the universe, then perhaps seeing things more from His POV is a better way to understand such infinite concepts. Read on…
From the perspective of God, not limited by time, what is the definition of eternal, everlasting, forever, etc.? That would have to be that whatever He is experiencing at this moment is also where God is at any point in eternity. As hard as that might be to understand fully, it fits well with the Bible saying that God is unchanging. But what of us, the selfish Prodigal Children who decided to go against their Father’s loving ways? The Bible says that such behavior means we are doomed for hell, and I actually agree with that. (I define hell as being separated from the loving mind of God, so hell is an ugly state of mind rather than a torturous location.) But while I believe we have the choice to reject God forever, at any moment we might change our minds, we can always get out of hell...forever. When we do, we can head back on the Prodigal’s path toward home/heaven where He meets us and throws a party in celebration. Let me try a science analogy to illustrate this point better.
If you were to throw a ball into open space and there were no gravitational waves or other vector forces to affect its path, how long would the ball head in the direction you threw it? I think we can all agree it would speed ever-farther away unimpeded forever. But if the ball were remotely controlled and propelled by us, could we not at any moment send a signal to the ball to turn around and come back? So how does this relate to an eternal hell? I’ll sum it up…
I agree with the passages of the Bible that say our selfish behaviors will indeed put us in hell (apart from God in consciousness). If we choose to continue our selfish ways, then hell lasts exactly as long as our selfish choices continue, so hell can indeed be eternal if that is what we choose it to be for us. However, the moment we would desire to change our ways and accept the loving ones God prefers, we always have that choice to make. That would make hell eternal, if we choose it to be, but always reversible (can return to heaven) when we’ve had enough of reaping the selfishness we’ve sown.
I know this is a lousy topic for most Atheists to discuss, but I welcome all comments or inquiries into the logic of my POV once the premises it’s based on are at least temporarily accepted for the sake of discussion.
Is an eternal hell reversible?
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GospelJohn
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Post #21
Then who in your opinion is Lucifer who fell from heaven?Benoni wrote: Satan is a spirit not a soul. Satan was never Lucifer; he was always a liar and a murderer.
Isa 14:12-15 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
etc.
Post #22
Adam.Skyangel wrote:Then who in your opinion is Lucifer who fell from heaven?Benoni wrote: Satan is a spirit not a soul. Satan was never Lucifer; he was always a liar and a murderer.
Isa 14:12-15 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
etc.
Post #23
Are you saying you believe all of mankind is Lucifer or just the man named Adam in Genesis?Benoni wrote:Adam.Skyangel wrote:Then who in your opinion is Lucifer who fell from heaven?Benoni wrote: Satan is a spirit not a soul. Satan was never Lucifer; he was always a liar and a murderer.
Please clarify what you mean. How is Adam Lucifer?
When did Adam fall from heaven ?
Post #24
Let us stop looking at the doctrines of Rome and look what God’s Word has to say. Tradition tells us that Satan is Lucifer. Let us look a little closer with eyes wide open?Skyangel wrote:Are you saying you believe all of mankind is Lucifer or just the man named Adam in Genesis?Benoni wrote:Adam.Skyangel wrote:Then who in your opinion is Lucifer who fell from heaven?Benoni wrote: Satan is a spirit not a soul. Satan was never Lucifer; he was always a liar and a murderer.
Please clarify what you mean. How is Adam Lucifer?
When did Adam fall from heaven ?
Is 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven O Lucifer, son of the morning!------13 For thou hast said in thine heart (mind) I will ascend into heaven, ---- 14 I will belike the most High, 15 yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit, -----16----Is this the MAN that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms------.
Now the religious system teaches that Ez 28:13 and Is 14:12 are speaking of Satan and the KJ Bible is the only version that uses the word Lucifer. It is not even a Hebrew word.
Moffat translation says "What a fall from heaven O Shining star of the dawns" Rotherham"How hast thou fallen from heaven, O shining One, son of the dawn!"Amplified "how are you fallen from heaven O light-bearer and day star, son of the morning!"
2 Pet 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.
Rev 22:16 I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these thing sin the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
The word Lucifer in the Strong's Concordance says it is a title applied to the king of Babylon.
The word itself means the morning star.
The word MAN means a mortal, an individual, a male person. I could rest my case on just that one verse alone, but why would Peter under the direction of the Holy Spirit compare Jesus as the Day star with Lucifer the Devil?
It is the erroneous translation of the KJ that infers such.
Lucifer was never an Arc Angel, he was a MAN. (Satan is a spirit.)
Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth -----15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Adam as well Satan was both in the Garden of Eden; Adam was perfect in all ways he was a son of God, but innocent; where Satan was created a liar and a murderer from the beginning.
Adam had a relationship with God in the Garden which far exceeds any moral man; that is where Adam fell from. Iniquity came to Adam upon that fall.
Is 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven O Lucifer, son of the morning!------13 For thou hast said in thine heart (mind) I will ascend into heaven, ---- 14 I will belike the most High, 15 yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit, -----16----Is this the MAN that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms
How is Adam a light bearer? Adam was clothed by God’s glory before the fall. By eating of the tree of Good and Evil he was brought down to the realm of death. Adam died when he partook of the fruit in the garden; he did not die physically until he was 930 years old. (Gen. 5.5) He died spiritually. In Adam’s mind he was deceived to believe something he already was; instead of doing only God’s will like Jesus. Adam did Adam’s will.
On the other hand God created Satan a liar, a muderer and a manslayer from Satan's beginning.
Religion claims Satan is Lucifer, God created Satan as a liar and a murderer from his beginning. If Satan was an angel as the myth of religion proclaims then how can he have two beginnings? IMPOSIBLE!
Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.
Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNING and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..
It is impossible, Satan cannot have two beginnings that is if you believe God’s Word and not Rome.
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Goat
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Post #25
In that particular passage, Isaiah is referring to the Phonetician god Helel, The Light Bringer, the Morning Star. Son of Shachar. Helel once attempted to take his Father's Throne, but failed. In this case, Isaiah was mocking Nebuchadnezzar by comparing him to a fallen god who failed because of his ambition.Skyangel wrote:Then who in your opinion is Lucifer who fell from heaven?Benoni wrote: Satan is a spirit not a soul. Satan was never Lucifer; he was always a liar and a murderer.
Isa 14:12-15 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
etc.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
Steven Novella
Post #26
I disagree with you. Satan can indeed have two or more beginnings since the beginning and the end is the same thing and eternal. Think about it. Jesus "destroys" satan and then locks him up for a thousand years and then lets him out again after a thousand years is up. That is like a brand new beginning is it not?Benoni wrote:
Let us stop looking at the doctrines of Rome and look what God’s Word has to say. Tradition tells us that Satan is Lucifer. Let us look a little closer with eyes wide open?
Now the religious system teaches that Ez 28:13 and Is 14:12 are speaking of Satan and the KJ Bible is the only version that uses the word Lucifer. It is not even a Hebrew word.
Rev 22:16 I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these thing sin the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
The word itself means the morning star.
The word MAN means a mortal, an individual, a male person. I could rest my case on just that one verse alone, but why would Peter under the direction of the Holy Spirit compare Jesus as the Day star with Lucifer the Devil?
Lucifer was never an Arc Angel, he was a MAN. (Satan is a spirit.)
Adam had a relationship with God in the Garden which far exceeds any moral man; that is where Adam fell from. Iniquity came to Adam upon that fall.
Religion claims Satan is Lucifer, God created Satan as a liar and a murderer from his beginning. If Satan was an angel as the myth of religion proclaims then how can he have two beginnings? IMPOSIBLE!
Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNING and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in
It is impossible, Satan cannot have two beginnings that is if you believe God’s Word and not Rome.
What is a beginning? Its merely the start of something new. All people have a new beginning every day as they rise from their sleep and start a new day. Sleep in the bible is the same as death so you basically die daily and rise from the dead daily in a sense.
The religious system does indeed teach that Lucifer is satan but the bible also appears to teach that Lucifer is Jesus.
Jesus was and IS and always will be a MAN, as well as a spirit was/is He not?
Jesus Himself says He is the morning star.
MAN is not a Spirit but a LIVING SOUL. This living soul consists of two parts. The fleshly part which is the Man and the Spirit which is the LIFE or breath inside the flesh.. You can separate man from the spirit and then the man is no more alive but dead. As long as man and spirit are together as one they are a living soul. When they are separated the man is dead but the spirit remains alive because the Spirit of Life cannot die.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
You ask " Why would Peter under the direction of the Holy Spirit compare Jesus as the Day star with Lucifer the Devil? "
Because Jesus BECAME the devil when He died on the cross. He was made sin. Jesus fell into sin on the day He was made sin. The bright and morning star was darkened on that day. The light was darkened.
2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Luk 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
You said"
Adam had a relationship with God in the Garden which far exceeds any moral man; that is where Adam fell from. Iniquity came to Adam upon that fall. "
Jesus also had the same relationship with God which far exceeds that of any other . He fell from that relationship when the Father forsook Him on the cross. Why ? because He was made sin and the Father always turns away from sin.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Ultimately Jesus became the devil in order to destroy the devil. yet he was raised from the dead by the Father who forgives and does not judge and in the process Christians end up worshipping the devil on the cross. and condemning those who put Him there.
I personally think it is quite a comedy of the cycle of LIFE set up by God. It is quite hilarious to watch people who have no clue what they are saying or doing, trying to make sense of LIFE.
You said " Religion claims Satan is Lucifer, God created Satan as a liar and a murderer from his beginning. If Satan was an angel as the myth of religion proclaims then how can he have two beginnings? IMPOSIBLE! "
The bible says Nothing is impossible with God. All things are possible.
Luk 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Lucifer is the devil and Lucifer is also Jesus. They are one and the same. To those who hate the Truth, Jesus is the devil. To those who Love the Truth, the Truth sets them free and reveals the revelation to them who learn to love and forgive in the same way Jesus does.
All hyocrites call Jesus ( Truth ) a liar and think he is of the devil. They see Him as evil. They are looking at their own Father and see the devil. Jesus tried to tell them but they did not listen.
Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Who is the creator of all evil ?
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
Are lies evil? God created lies. God is the father of lies and liars.
God and the devil are one Spirit in the same way darkness and light are ONE DAY. Light always dispels darkness yet darkness survives in the shadow of the light and is never destroyed in spite of the fact it is destroyed daily.
That is the reality of light and darkness. They are always together as one yet separated by the obstacles which cause the shadows.
The obstacles which cause the shadows of confusion in the mind of man are the shadows of doubt and fear and the indoctrination into false doctrines.
Post #27
The phrase "O Day Star, son of Dawn" in the New Revised Standard Version translation given above corresponds to the Hebrew phrase "הילל בן־ש�חר" (Helel Ben-Shachar) in verse 12, meaning "morning star, son of dawn".goat wrote:
In that particular passage, Isaiah is referring to the Phonetician god Helel, The Light Bringer, the Morning Star. Son of Shachar. Helel once attempted to take his Father's Throne, but failed. In this case, Isaiah was mocking Nebuchadnezzar by comparing him to a fallen god who failed because of his ambition.
It is not talking about any Phonecian god but about a day star or morning star.
The Hebrew word is "heylel" which means "Light bearer"
It is derived from the Hebrew root word "halal" which means "to shine, to praise, boast, be boastful"
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 1984&t=KJV
Post #28
Skyangel
God's Word makes it clear that he was a murderer from THE BEGINNING and concluded His statement by saying, "...And in the truth HE HAS NOT STOOD." (Jn. 8:44;
Diaglott, Westcott & Hort, and Marshall's Interlinear Grk/Eng N.T.). If he has NEVER STOOD IN THE LIGHT OF THE TRUTH, so if he has never stood fo the light of the truth how can Satan be a light bearer??????
Also, if he "...HAS BEEN SINNING FROM THE BEGINNING," as John recorded (I Jn. 3:8, Diaglott), there is no honest way we can say Satan was ever a glorious, shining, angel of light with the name of Lucifer. If this be true, how then, can Isa. 14:12 be speaking of Satan? It is not.
When God speaks of "the beginning" He is speaking of the ORIGINATING POINT of the subject in question. It is written of Jesus when He had turned water into wine, "THIS BEGINNING of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth His glory; and His disciples believed on Him" (Jn. 2:11). This means, simply, that the miraculous aspect of the ministry of Jesus Christ had as its originating point this miracle of the water turned into wine. He had performed no miracles before this time, but from this day forth many more were to follow. This, so far as His miracles were concerned, was "the beginning." Thus we may clearly see that if something is manifested in a certain form "from the beginning" that means that from the time it was first formed, established, and came into being it has been in that condition.
There is a big difference between the soul and the spirit. The souls needs to be saved. Notice the body or dust returns to earth, of course who needs a dirt body when we have a new glorious body.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
You are missing the best part. Noticed the context of Genesis; on the sixth day God creates man in his image and likeness, noticed God “created man�. God is a spirit so if man was created in his likeness then man was originally created on the sixth day a spirit for God is not a soul, He is pure spirit. And to reinforce this I just posted Ecclesiastes 12:7 and 1 Corinthians 2:11 above. Man is a spirit, soul and body. You can separate mans spirit as Ecclesiastes 12:7 declares from the body for the spirt returns to God who gave it in Genesis 2:2t
In Genesis 2:16-27. God is a Spirit and if we were made in His image which is spirit; that is when man became a spirit and who knows how long Adam was pure spirit. This all happened on the six day(what ever that means?) ; it was a totally new day the seventh day that God made man from the dust of the earth and a living soul; New day new experience in Adam different phases in His creation. Man was a spirit first and then and only then is he lowered to from pure spirit to dust, and soulish man.
WOW, this is really off base. You show me in scripture where "Jesus was made the devil"????????????
Jesus was never made the devil. The bright and morning star is a very small star (but still a star) in a very dark sky; but it also is a dawn of a new day; notice the darkness is not Jesus, the darkness makes the brightness of the star shine even more. I am not even going to address the rest of this for it all falls under the same nonesence that you believe Jesus became the devil. HOGWASH.
What do you mean the beginning and the end are the same thing? Satan is not an eternal being; only God is an eternal being.I disagree with you. Satan can indeed have two or more beginnings since the beginning and the end is the same thing and eternal.
No,Think about it. Jesus "destroys" satan and then locks him up for a thousand years and then lets him out again after a thousand years is up. That is like a brand new beginning is it not?
This may be your interpretation but please let us use scripture instead of some made up religious spin.What is a beginning? Its merely the start of something new. All people have a new beginning every day as they rise from their sleep and start a new day. Sleep in the bible is the same as death so you basically die daily and rise from the dead daily in a sense.
God's Word makes it clear that he was a murderer from THE BEGINNING and concluded His statement by saying, "...And in the truth HE HAS NOT STOOD." (Jn. 8:44;
Diaglott, Westcott & Hort, and Marshall's Interlinear Grk/Eng N.T.). If he has NEVER STOOD IN THE LIGHT OF THE TRUTH, so if he has never stood fo the light of the truth how can Satan be a light bearer??????
Also, if he "...HAS BEEN SINNING FROM THE BEGINNING," as John recorded (I Jn. 3:8, Diaglott), there is no honest way we can say Satan was ever a glorious, shining, angel of light with the name of Lucifer. If this be true, how then, can Isa. 14:12 be speaking of Satan? It is not.
When God speaks of "the beginning" He is speaking of the ORIGINATING POINT of the subject in question. It is written of Jesus when He had turned water into wine, "THIS BEGINNING of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth His glory; and His disciples believed on Him" (Jn. 2:11). This means, simply, that the miraculous aspect of the ministry of Jesus Christ had as its originating point this miracle of the water turned into wine. He had performed no miracles before this time, but from this day forth many more were to follow. This, so far as His miracles were concerned, was "the beginning." Thus we may clearly see that if something is manifested in a certain form "from the beginning" that means that from the time it was first formed, established, and came into being it has been in that condition.
Nice opinion but again please let us rely on God’s Word not man’s attempted misunderstandings.The religious system does indeed teach that Lucifer is satan but the bible also appears to teach that Lucifer is Jesus.
Jesus was and IS and always will be a MAN, as well as a spirit was/is He not?
Jesus Himself says He is the morning star.
MAN is not a Spirit but a LIVING SOUL. This living soul consists of two parts. The fleshly part which is the Man and the Spirit which is the LIFE or breath inside the flesh.. You can separate man from the spirit and then the man is no more alive but dead. As long as man and spirit are together as one they are a living soul. When they are separated the man is dead but the spirit remains alive because the Spirit of Life cannot die.
There is a big difference between the soul and the spirit. The souls needs to be saved. Notice the body or dust returns to earth, of course who needs a dirt body when we have a new glorious body.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
You are missing the best part. Noticed the context of Genesis; on the sixth day God creates man in his image and likeness, noticed God “created man�. God is a spirit so if man was created in his likeness then man was originally created on the sixth day a spirit for God is not a soul, He is pure spirit. And to reinforce this I just posted Ecclesiastes 12:7 and 1 Corinthians 2:11 above. Man is a spirit, soul and body. You can separate mans spirit as Ecclesiastes 12:7 declares from the body for the spirt returns to God who gave it in Genesis 2:2t
Gen. 1: 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
In Genesis 2:16-27. God is a Spirit and if we were made in His image which is spirit; that is when man became a spirit and who knows how long Adam was pure spirit. This all happened on the six day(what ever that means?) ; it was a totally new day the seventh day that God made man from the dust of the earth and a living soul; New day new experience in Adam different phases in His creation. Man was a spirit first and then and only then is he lowered to from pure spirit to dust, and soulish man.
You ask " Why would Peter under the direction of the Holy Spirit compare Jesus as the Day star with Lucifer the Devil? "
Because Jesus BECAME the devil when He died on the cross. He was made sin. Jesus fell into sin on the day He was made sin. The bright and morning star was darkened on that day. The light was darkened.
WOW, this is really off base. You show me in scripture where "Jesus was made the devil"????????????
Jesus was never made the devil. The bright and morning star is a very small star (but still a star) in a very dark sky; but it also is a dawn of a new day; notice the darkness is not Jesus, the darkness makes the brightness of the star shine even more. I am not even going to address the rest of this for it all falls under the same nonesence that you believe Jesus became the devil. HOGWASH.
Post #29
Why dont you tell me?. Please explain how satan can appear to be an angel of light or be transformed into an angel of light if that angel bears no light ?Benoni wrote:
This may be your interpretation but please let us use scripture instead of some made up religious spin.
God's Word makes it clear that he was a murderer from THE BEGINNING and concluded His statement by saying, "...And in the truth HE HAS NOT STOOD." (Jn. 8:44;
Diaglott, Westcott & Hort, and Marshall's Interlinear Grk/Eng N.T.). If he has NEVER STOOD IN THE LIGHT OF THE TRUTH, so if he has never stood fo the light of the truth how can Satan be a light bearer??????
2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
If it is not then how can satan be transformed into an angel of light?Benoni wrote:
Also, if he "...HAS BEEN SINNING FROM THE BEGINNING," as John recorded (I Jn. 3:8, Diaglott), there is no honest way we can say Satan was ever a glorious, shining, angel of light with the name of Lucifer. If this be true, how then, can Isa. 14:12 be speaking of Satan? It is not.
2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness!
How can light be darkness?
God is the beginning. When the bible talks about "the beginning" is it talking about God Himself.Benoni wrote:
When God speaks of "the beginning" He is speaking of the ORIGINATING POINT of the subject in question. It is written of Jesus when He had turned water into wine, "THIS BEGINNING of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth His glory; and His disciples believed on Him" (Jn. 2:11). This means, simply, that the miraculous aspect of the ministry of Jesus Christ had as its originating point this miracle of the water turned into wine. He had performed no miracles before this time, but from this day forth many more were to follow. This, so far as His miracles were concerned, was "the beginning." Thus we may clearly see that if something is manifested in a certain form "from the beginning" that means that from the time it was first formed, established, and came into being it has been in that condition.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
" The beginning" is God. The beginning "of something" is the starting point of that particular aspect of whatever is mentioned.
The beginning of sin is the day God created evil. The originating point of evil is God.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
It appears to me that you are the one who is insisting on relying on the word of God yet you cannot even see what the word itself says about how man "became".... notice and pay attention to the word " became".... a soul.Benoni wrote:
Nice opinion but again please let us rely on God’s Word not man’s attempted misunderstandings.
There is a big difference between the soul and the spirit. The souls needs to be saved. Notice the body or dust returns to earth, of course who needs a dirt body when we have a new glorious body.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
You are missing the best part. Noticed the context of Genesis; on the sixth day God creates man in his image and likeness, noticed God “created man�. God is a spirit so if man was created in his likeness then man was originally created on the sixth day a spirit for God is not a soul, He is pure spirit. And to reinforce this I just posted Ecclesiastes 12:7 and 1 Corinthians 2:11 above. Man is a spirit, soul and body. You can separate mans spirit as Ecclesiastes 12:7 declares from the body for the spirt returns to God who gave it in Genesis 2:2t
You are the one missing the message completely. Man does not have a soul. Man BECAME a soul according to the bible.
How did man become a soul? He became a soul by the process of God BREATHING a SPIRIT into a BODY.
Body+ Spirit = soul..
Understand?
That is what the bible teaches you very clearly if you have eyes to see it.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Notice man was formed from dust and was not breathing at the time. That is what the bible calls man. Then the next step God breathed His Spirit or His Life into the man who was not breathing and had no Life and no Spirit in him. This act resulted in man becoming something. The bible calls this a living soul. Man does not have a soul. Man IS a soul. Man is flesh+Spirit which results in a soul. A soul has a body and a Spirit. That is what the soul is made of according to the biblical recipe.
It is mankind who has divided himself into three parts instead of understanding he is merely flesh and spirit. The flesh returns to dust and the spirit goes back to God. The soul is divided again in the end like it was in the beginning.
2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.Benoni wrote:
WOW, this is really off base. You show me in scripture where "Jesus was made the devil"????????????
Do you see in that scripture that Jesus was MADE sin? Sin and the devil are one in the same way righteousness and Jesus are one.
1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin:
Jesus was made unrighteous when he was made sin.
Jesus was the last Adam who became the first Adam. You yourself said Adam is the devil.
Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last:
They, the first and last "Adams", swapped places. Why ? So Jesus could justify Adam and make him righteous.
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
2Cr 5:21 For he ( God) hath made him ( Jesus the last Adam ) [to be] sin ( Evil, Unrighteous) for us ( Adam ), who knew no sin; that we ( Adam, the devil ) might be made the righteousness of God in him ( The last Adam who took the place of the first Adam and became the sin, evil unrighteousness of the first Adam ).
You are welcome to believe it is hogwash if you prefer to hold on to your own hogwash but the fact remains that the bible tells us that Jesus was made sin.Benoni wrote: Jesus was never made the devil. The bright and morning star is a very small star (but still a star) in a very dark sky; but it also is a dawn of a new day; notice the darkness is not Jesus, the darkness makes the brightness of the star shine even more. I am not even going to address the rest of this for it all falls under the same nonesence that you believe Jesus became the devil. HOGWASH.
If you do not relate sin with the devil then so be it. If you do not wish to believe Jesus took the place of Adam and became the first Adam and fulfilled the scripture about the first being the last then so be it.
Do you still believe Adam was the devil and Jesus took the place of Adam on the cross in order to destroy the devil or not?
If Jesus did not take the place of the devil by becoming the devil who was killed or destroyed then how was the devil destroyed in your opinion?
Hbr 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
Jesus destroyed the devil through death so who was destroyed and forsaken of the Father on the cross? Jesus or the devil ( the flesh of Adam )?
Post #30
[quote="Skyangel"
You are welcome to believe it is hogwash if you prefer to hold on to your own hogwash but the fact remains that the bible tells us that Jesus was made sin.
If you do not relate sin with the devil then so be it. If you do not wish to believe Jesus took the place of Adam and became the first Adam and fulfilled the scripture about the first being the last then so be it.
Do you still believe Adam was the devil and Jesus took the place of Adam on the cross in order to destroy the devil or not?
If Jesus did not take the place of the devil by becoming the devil who was killed or destroyed then how was the devil destroyed in your opinion?
Hbr 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
Jesus destroyed the devil through death so who was destroyed and forsaken of the Father on the cross? Jesus or the devil ( the flesh of Adam )?[/quote]
S-word's RESPONSE; It was He, the spirit that descended upon Jesus in the form of a dove and who chose the man Jesus as the one through whom He would reveal his perfected nature to the world. He, who sent Jesus in His name to speak in his name, and it is to He, who revealed himself through his chosen and obedient earthly host body, to whom all sin has been ascribed.
For this reason, his earthly image (Jesus) had to lifted up on a stake, in the same manner that Moses lifted up upon a stake, the image of the serpent in the wilderness, in order that all those who were dying because of the venom of that old accusing serpent that courses through their veins and is killing them, only have to turn to His earthly image that had been lifted up to be saved.
But putting all that aside, I have posted the following in order to give you some idea as to how the ancients viewed the devil.
From the “Book of Adam and Eve,� chapters 27, 28, and 29. Eve speaking to Seth; (27) “And as we were being driven out amid loud lamentations, your father Adam besought the angels and said: “Leave me a little space that I may entreat the Lord that he have compassion on me and pity me, for I only have sinned.� And they left off driving him and Adam cried aloud and wept saying: “Pardon me. O Lord my deed.� Then the Lord sayeth to the angels, “Why have ye ceased from driving Adam from paradise? Why do ye not cast him out? Is it I who have done wrong? Or is my judgement badly judged?� The angels fell down on the earth saying, “Thou art just, O Lord, and thou judgest righteous judgement.�
(28) But the Lord turned to Adam and said, “I will not suffer thee henceforward to be in paradise.� And Adam answered and said, “Grant me, O Lord, of the Tree of Life that I may eat of it, before I be cast out.� Then the Lord spake to Adam, “Thou shalt not take of it now, for I have commanded the Cherubim with the flaming sword that turneth everyway to guard it from thee that thou taste not of it; but thou hast the war which the adversary hath put in thee; yet when thou art gone out of paradise, If thou shouldest keep thyself from all evil, as one about to die, when Again the resurrection hath come to pass, I will raise thee up and then there shall be given to thee the Tree of Life.�
(29) Thus spake the Lord and ordered us to be cast out of paradise. But your Father Adam wept before the angels opposite paradise and the angels say to him: “What wouldst thou have us do, Adam?� And your father sayeth to them, “Behold, ye cast me out. I pray you, allow me to take away fragrant herbs from paradise, so I may offer an offering to God after I have gone out of paradise, that he hear me.� And the angels approached God and said: “JAEL, Eternal King, (Jah "Lord," El "God, Lord to the glory of God the creator) command, my Lord, that there be given to Adam incense of sweet odour from paradise and seeds for his food.� And God bade Adam go in and take sweet spices and fragrant herbs from paradise and seeds for his food. And the angels let him go and he took four kinds: Crocus and Nard and Calamus and Cinnamon and other seed for his food: and, after taking these, he went out of paradise. And we were on the earth.
After Adam had been cast back to the earth from which he had been created, he turned to his adversary and said, “What dost thou tell me? What have I done to thee, or what is my fault against thee? Seeing that thou hast received no harm or injury from us, why dost thou pursue us? The Devil replied, “Adam, what dost thou tell me? It is for thy sake that I have been hurled from that place. When thou wast formed, I was hurled out of the presence of God and banished from the company of the angels. When God blew into thee the breath of life, and thy face and thy likeness were made in the image of God, Michael also brought thee and made us worship thee in the sight of God; and God the Lord (Jahel or Lord to the glory of El the creator) spake: Here is Adam. I have made thee in our image and likeness.� And Michael went out and called all the angels saying: “Worship the image of God as the (Lord Jah) (God El) hath commanded.� And Michael himself worshipped first; then he called me and said, “Worship the image of God the Lord.� And I answered, “I have no need to worship Adam.� And since Michael kept urging me to worship, I said to him, “Why dost thou urge me?� I will not worship an inferior being than me. I am his senior in the creation; before he was made I was already made. It is Adam’s duty to worship me.�
When the angels who were under me, heard this, they also refused to worship Adam, And Michael saith, “Worship the image of God, (The Most High and Lord of Creatures) but if thou wilt not worship him, the Lord God will be wrath with thee.� But he, said, “If he be wrath with me, I will set my seat above the stars of heaven and will be like the highest himself.� And God the Lord was wrath with me and banished me and my angels from our glory; and on thy account, were we expelled from our abodes into this world and were hurled on the earth. And straight way we were overcome with grief, since we had been spoiled of so great glory. And we were grieved when we saw thee in such Joy and luxury (In the Garden of Eden). And with guile I (The Spiritual godhead of the upright walking serpent) cheated thy wife Eve and caused thee to be expelled through her doing from thy joy and luxury, as I have been driven out of my glory, etc. It is also written somewhere else in the Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, that after Satan had been hurled down to the earth of the sixth cycle of universal activity and while Adam was still in Paradise, the ruling spirit in the enclosure that was Eve whose pregnant body today has become the entire body of mankind, then understood that God was about to bring in a new creation and he thought to bring Adam down, and in such form (That is “Thought�) he was able to enter into and deceive Eve, but he was unable to touch Adam.
As mankind is not the end of the evoutionary process and that which evolves from man, (The Son of Man) is soon to appear on earth, I wonder how many of we human beings will say, "I will not worship an inferior being than me. I am his senior in the creation; before he was made I was already made. It is the duty of the "Son of Man" to worship me�?
You are welcome to believe it is hogwash if you prefer to hold on to your own hogwash but the fact remains that the bible tells us that Jesus was made sin.
If you do not relate sin with the devil then so be it. If you do not wish to believe Jesus took the place of Adam and became the first Adam and fulfilled the scripture about the first being the last then so be it.
Do you still believe Adam was the devil and Jesus took the place of Adam on the cross in order to destroy the devil or not?
If Jesus did not take the place of the devil by becoming the devil who was killed or destroyed then how was the devil destroyed in your opinion?
Hbr 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
Jesus destroyed the devil through death so who was destroyed and forsaken of the Father on the cross? Jesus or the devil ( the flesh of Adam )?[/quote]
S-word's RESPONSE; It was He, the spirit that descended upon Jesus in the form of a dove and who chose the man Jesus as the one through whom He would reveal his perfected nature to the world. He, who sent Jesus in His name to speak in his name, and it is to He, who revealed himself through his chosen and obedient earthly host body, to whom all sin has been ascribed.
For this reason, his earthly image (Jesus) had to lifted up on a stake, in the same manner that Moses lifted up upon a stake, the image of the serpent in the wilderness, in order that all those who were dying because of the venom of that old accusing serpent that courses through their veins and is killing them, only have to turn to His earthly image that had been lifted up to be saved.
But putting all that aside, I have posted the following in order to give you some idea as to how the ancients viewed the devil.
From the “Book of Adam and Eve,� chapters 27, 28, and 29. Eve speaking to Seth; (27) “And as we were being driven out amid loud lamentations, your father Adam besought the angels and said: “Leave me a little space that I may entreat the Lord that he have compassion on me and pity me, for I only have sinned.� And they left off driving him and Adam cried aloud and wept saying: “Pardon me. O Lord my deed.� Then the Lord sayeth to the angels, “Why have ye ceased from driving Adam from paradise? Why do ye not cast him out? Is it I who have done wrong? Or is my judgement badly judged?� The angels fell down on the earth saying, “Thou art just, O Lord, and thou judgest righteous judgement.�
(28) But the Lord turned to Adam and said, “I will not suffer thee henceforward to be in paradise.� And Adam answered and said, “Grant me, O Lord, of the Tree of Life that I may eat of it, before I be cast out.� Then the Lord spake to Adam, “Thou shalt not take of it now, for I have commanded the Cherubim with the flaming sword that turneth everyway to guard it from thee that thou taste not of it; but thou hast the war which the adversary hath put in thee; yet when thou art gone out of paradise, If thou shouldest keep thyself from all evil, as one about to die, when Again the resurrection hath come to pass, I will raise thee up and then there shall be given to thee the Tree of Life.�
(29) Thus spake the Lord and ordered us to be cast out of paradise. But your Father Adam wept before the angels opposite paradise and the angels say to him: “What wouldst thou have us do, Adam?� And your father sayeth to them, “Behold, ye cast me out. I pray you, allow me to take away fragrant herbs from paradise, so I may offer an offering to God after I have gone out of paradise, that he hear me.� And the angels approached God and said: “JAEL, Eternal King, (Jah "Lord," El "God, Lord to the glory of God the creator) command, my Lord, that there be given to Adam incense of sweet odour from paradise and seeds for his food.� And God bade Adam go in and take sweet spices and fragrant herbs from paradise and seeds for his food. And the angels let him go and he took four kinds: Crocus and Nard and Calamus and Cinnamon and other seed for his food: and, after taking these, he went out of paradise. And we were on the earth.
After Adam had been cast back to the earth from which he had been created, he turned to his adversary and said, “What dost thou tell me? What have I done to thee, or what is my fault against thee? Seeing that thou hast received no harm or injury from us, why dost thou pursue us? The Devil replied, “Adam, what dost thou tell me? It is for thy sake that I have been hurled from that place. When thou wast formed, I was hurled out of the presence of God and banished from the company of the angels. When God blew into thee the breath of life, and thy face and thy likeness were made in the image of God, Michael also brought thee and made us worship thee in the sight of God; and God the Lord (Jahel or Lord to the glory of El the creator) spake: Here is Adam. I have made thee in our image and likeness.� And Michael went out and called all the angels saying: “Worship the image of God as the (Lord Jah) (God El) hath commanded.� And Michael himself worshipped first; then he called me and said, “Worship the image of God the Lord.� And I answered, “I have no need to worship Adam.� And since Michael kept urging me to worship, I said to him, “Why dost thou urge me?� I will not worship an inferior being than me. I am his senior in the creation; before he was made I was already made. It is Adam’s duty to worship me.�
When the angels who were under me, heard this, they also refused to worship Adam, And Michael saith, “Worship the image of God, (The Most High and Lord of Creatures) but if thou wilt not worship him, the Lord God will be wrath with thee.� But he, said, “If he be wrath with me, I will set my seat above the stars of heaven and will be like the highest himself.� And God the Lord was wrath with me and banished me and my angels from our glory; and on thy account, were we expelled from our abodes into this world and were hurled on the earth. And straight way we were overcome with grief, since we had been spoiled of so great glory. And we were grieved when we saw thee in such Joy and luxury (In the Garden of Eden). And with guile I (The Spiritual godhead of the upright walking serpent) cheated thy wife Eve and caused thee to be expelled through her doing from thy joy and luxury, as I have been driven out of my glory, etc. It is also written somewhere else in the Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, that after Satan had been hurled down to the earth of the sixth cycle of universal activity and while Adam was still in Paradise, the ruling spirit in the enclosure that was Eve whose pregnant body today has become the entire body of mankind, then understood that God was about to bring in a new creation and he thought to bring Adam down, and in such form (That is “Thought�) he was able to enter into and deceive Eve, but he was unable to touch Adam.
As mankind is not the end of the evoutionary process and that which evolves from man, (The Son of Man) is soon to appear on earth, I wonder how many of we human beings will say, "I will not worship an inferior being than me. I am his senior in the creation; before he was made I was already made. It is the duty of the "Son of Man" to worship me�?
