Getting Arrested for Jesus

[micatala]

http://www.twincities.com/newsletter-mo ... i_13346147

The article describes the actions of a nun who was arrested during the Republican National Convention in St Paul MN last year.

Questions for debate:

1) Are these actions consistent with the gospel of Jesus?

2) Is the nun's interjection of her faith into the political process appropriate? Comparisons with anti-abortion protesters and others who act on their faith with respect to political issues would be relevant, I would think.

[MagusYanam]

Stop lying. Plagiarizing is claiming others work as your own. I haven't done that any more than you have.

I'm not lying; you copy-and-paste entire blocks of text from uncited online sources, or you pull numbers completely out of your arse, like the '50 million Iraqis' figure before (which is wrong, according to nationsencyclopedia.com), or this one:

Its been estimated that 100-150 millions Muslims worldwide sympathize with the Islamists.

Estimated by whom? What's the source on that number? I quoted one of the two reviewed studies on Iraqi casualties before and an estimate calculator based on it, and you basically pooh-poohed it with an opinion article which was not your own! Do you have any concept of honesty or integrity at all? If you have, why haven't you shown it here, on a forum where it is against the rules to make such assertions without evidence?

Some will argue whether Iraq was a just war, but killing the enemy in such a war isn't murder. Speaking of evasion, was killing Germans in our war of liberation in Europe in WWII 'murder'? Perhaps it is the same to you as what went on in the German death camps.

WWII is over and has been for a good 60 years. The reason I have not been arguing it with you is because I, at least, still have some respect for the people who fought in it and what they went through (my late grandfather having been one of them). It was perhaps the closest thing we've had to a just war in our history and it still produced some of the worst human tragedies we've yet seen in history (including the Holocaust, the depopulation of Eastern Europe by the Nazis, the rape of Nanjing, Hiroshima and Nagasaki), which makes it all the more disrespectful and obscene when it is dredged up to justify infinitely less worthy and less just wars. But some of the differences between the Iraq war and WWII is that we did not go to war with Iraq as a last resort and it was not a self-defensive measure as our response to Pearl Harbour was - as such, I consider the killing in the Iraq War to be murder.

[East of Eden]

I'm not lying; you copy-and-paste entire blocks of text from uncited online sources, or you pull numbers completely out of your arse, like the '50 million Iraqis' figure before (which is wrong, according to peopleandplanet.net), or this one:

The 50 million was a figure I heard that was wrong, like yours was. Wikipedia says 31,000,000.

Estimated by whom? What's the source on that number?

Daniel Pipes. For pete's sake, nearly 1 in 4 young US Muslims say suicide bombings against civilians are 'often' or 'sometimes' justified. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,274934,00.html Note also in the Pew survey only 36% of US black Muslims have a 'very unfavorable' view of Al-Queda.

I quoted one of the two reviewed studies on Iraqi casualties before and an estimate calculator based on it, and you basically pooh-poohed it with an opinion article which was not your own!

Never said it was my own. That would be plagiarism.

Do you have any concept of honesty or integrity at all? If you have, why haven't you shown it here, on a forum where it is against the rules to make such assertions without evidence?

It is no secret the Lancet findings are controversial. See Mr. Kane's work that I already brought up for details.

WWII is over and has been for a good 60 years. The reason I have not been arguing it with you is because I, at least, still have some respect for the people who fought in it and what they went through (my late grandfather having been one of them). It was perhaps the closest thing we've had to a just war in our history and it still produced some of the worst human tragedies we've yet seen in history (including the Holocaust, the depopulation of Eastern Europe by the Nazis, the rape of Nanjing, Hiroshima and Nagasaki), which makes it all the more disrespectful and obscene when it is dredged up to justify infinitely less worthy and less just wars. But some of the differences between the Iraq war and WWII is that we did not go to war with Iraq as a last resort and it was not a self-defensive measure as our response to Pearl Harbour was - as such, I consider the killing in the Iraq War to be murder.

OK, we're making progress. You believe there is such a thing as a just war but Iraq was not one of them. That would make your interpretation of Jesus' 'turn the other cheek' not an absolute. Why not say you disagree with the Iraq policy instead of calling it 'murder'? Trying to criminalize policy differences isn't exactly civil.

[East of Eden]

"It is my opinion that Islam is more an ideology than a religion. To be precise, Islam is a political, totalitarian ideology, with worldwide aspirations, just like communism and fascism, because like those ideologies Islam does not intend to assimilate in our societies but wants to dominate and submit us all. In Islam there is no room for anything but Islam. I think the great Winston Churchill was fully right when he, in his book The Second World War, called Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf the new Koran of faith and war."

Geert Wilders

[MagusYanam]

Astounding.

You claim to be Christian and yet you side with secular hatemongers like Pipes and Wilders, without any knowledge whatsoever about what Muslims really believe. I have visited mosques in three countries, studied alongside devout Muslims, been taught by Muslim professors and lived with a Muslim family in a majority-Muslim country, and I can tell you firsthand that the people that I have lived and studied and worked with have no desire to politically dominate or commit violence against their non-Muslim neighbours. They are honest, hardworking and hospitable, and among the most decent people I know - Wilders is quite simply wrong about them, and for him to tar all Islam with the same brush is bigotry, plain and simple.

As to the war. I acknowledge the theoretical possibility (as Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Karl Barth did, though they were otherwise pacifists) that violence may be justified in the absolute direst of extremities (what Barth called Grenzfallethik). Whether WWII was waged in the direst of extremities is an academic question to which I do not have a good answer. However, that the Iraq War bears no comparison is crystal-clear. It is a direct insult to Bonhoeffer and to centuries of Protestant Christian ethical thought to even attempt to make the case that the Iraq War could be justified or that the same kinds of inquiry apply to it as to WWII.

The Iraq War was not waged as a last resort, and Grenzfallethik simply cannot apply. It was based on false assertions concerning the presence of weapons of mass destruction meant to prey on public fear and outrage rather than conduct a rational public discourse. It was waged after Congress abdicated responsibility for declaring war, by an improper authority. In short, it was a premeditated, criminal act, for which the civilian leaders of the Bush Administration are to be held directly responsible.

[East of Eden]

Astounding.

You claim to be Christian and yet you side with secular hatemongers like Pipes and Wilders, without any knowledge whatsoever about what Muslims really believe.

lol, Right to the name-calling while ignoring the Pew survey showing large numbers of US Muslims support criminal Islamists activity.

I have visited mosques in three countries, studied alongside devout Muslims, been taught by Muslim professors and lived with a Muslim family in a majority-Muslim country, and I can tell you firsthand that the people that I have lived and studied and worked with have no desire to politically dominate or commit violence against their non-Muslim neighbours. They are honest, hardworking and hospitable, and among the most decent people I know

Big deal. I don't care about your personal anecdotes. FWIW, I was in Tangier, Morocco last month. They were nice people too. There is such a thing as the Muslim principle of 'taquiya', or the approval of lying to us infidels in order to advance the broader causes of Islam. Someone who has way more experience with Muslims than you do, a Sudanese Anglican Bishop, said, and I'm paraphrasing, "When Muslims are in the minority (the U.S), they are peaceful and hardworking. When they have population parity (Nigeria), they are agressive, and when they are in the majority (Saudi Arabia, Pakistan), they will kill you." No doubt you know more than he does on the subject. You might want to look at Christian aid groups like the Barnabas Fund (www.barnabas.org) and Voice of the Martyrs (www.persecution.com) and educate youself on the horrible suffering Christians worldwide are suffering daily at the hands of Muslims. I suppose they're 'hatemongers' too?

There is a PC myth you appear to hold that all religions and cultures are the same.

Wilders is quite simply wrong about them, and for him to tar all Islam with the same brush is bigotry, plain and simple.

Once again, you are clueless. In the same speech I took the quote from, he said, "Before I want to speak about Islam, I first would like to say this: I have nothing against Muslims. There are many moderate Muslims. The majority of Muslims in our Western countries are law abiding people, who want to live a peaceful life. I know that."

As to the war. I acknowledge the theoretical possibility (as Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Karl Barth did, though they were otherwise pacifists) that violence may be justified in the absolute direst of extremities (what Barth called Grenzfallethik). Whether WWII was waged in the direst of extremities is an academic question to which I do not have a good answer. However, that the Iraq War bears no comparison is crystal-clear. It is a direct insult to Bonhoeffer and to centuries of Protestant Christian ethical thought to even attempt to make the case that the Iraq War could be justified or that the same kinds of inquiry apply to it as to WWII.

I never said it was equally justified as WWII was. I would attribute it to bad intel. Perhaps if Frank Church and other congressional Democrats hadn't gutted our intel capabilities in the 70s it wouldn't have happened.

The Iraq War was not waged as a last resort, and Grenzfallethik simply cannot apply. It was based on false assertions concerning the presence of weapons of mass destruction meant to prey on public fear and outrage rather than conduct a rational public discourse. It was waged after Congress abdicated responsibility for declaring war, by an improper authority. In short, it was a premeditated, criminal act, for which the civilian leaders of the Bush Administration are to be held directly responsible.

More name calling from the usual suspect. Are the many Democrats who supported the war also to be prosecuted for these 'crimes' under your jihad?

[otseng]

Moderator comment.

A friendly reminder to please stick to the OP and to avoid making any type of personal comments. Thanks.

[MagusYanam]

A friendly reminder to please stick to the OP and to avoid making any type of personal comments. Thanks.

My apologies for my part in the incivility.

With regard to the OP, I think that the nun in question had every right to speak her mind. However, I am also of the opinion that civil disobedience requires a complete respect of the law outside that being protested. Peaceful protest of an unjust and criminal war requires taking the higher ground.

You only break laws that are directly responsible for the injustice being committed, and when you do, you take on the penalty without question (at least, that's how Gandhi and King approached the issue). I think we can debate whether what Sister Elizabeth did was appropriate in this regard.