Is Socialism Moral? Especially, Christian?

[Purple Knight]

The question for debate is whether a socialist system is closer to how Jesus intended people to behave than a capitalist one.

The sub-question is for those who think socialism is moral whether that was inspired by religion or not: If a country's laws were very close to what Jesus (or your morality) taught, but as a consequence, the country was a very bad place to live, would you move there? For example, a country that has a lot of assault because it is a law that you turn the other cheek and don't hit back, and you'll be punished for retaliating. Or a country where ministers roam around, imbued with legal authority, and they decide when you must sell all your possessions and give to the poor, including your house and car.

It's very easy to have high morals when the consequences are less present because the system you happen to live in works to protect you from them. Is there something extra moral about choosing to live where the system doesn't do that? Or is it just foolish? Because perhaps the goal is to have and hold the highest morals possible and if you've been given an ivory tower with which to protect them, that's simply a logical choice to achieve maximum morality.

[oldbadger]

Marke: Jesus never instructed Christians to support socialism, Marxism, communism, or free market capitalism. Jesus' instructions to Christians about caring for others was directed at the individual Christian, not instruction for Christians to force others to comply with mob or communal governing welfare.

What were you reading?
It looks like some kind of Satanic verses!

[marke]

Marke: Jesus never instructed Christians to support socialism, Marxism, communism, or free market capitalism. Jesus' instructions to Christians about caring for others was directed at the individual Christian, not instruction for Christians to force others to comply with mob or communal governing welfare.

What were you reading?
It looks like some kind of Satanic verses!

Marke: Bottom line. Jesus never instructed Christians to encourage governments to enact welfare programs compatible with various interpretations of Biblical instructions.

[oldbadger]

Marke: Bottom line. Jesus never instructed Christians to encourage governments to enact welfare programs compatible with various interpretations of Biblical instructions.

.....your bottom line, marke, I think.....
This, your version of the bottom line, leaves true Christianity (of Jesus) so far away as to be unrecognisable, imo.

You mentioned that you 'were saved' in 1971, does that mean you could do whatever you liked afterwards? It all seems very strange to me.

[marke]

Marke: Bottom line. Jesus never instructed Christians to encourage governments to enact welfare programs compatible with various interpretations of Biblical instructions.

.....your bottom line, marke, I think.....
This, your version of the bottom line, leaves true Christianity (of Jesus) so far away as to be unrecognisable, imo.

You mentioned that you 'were saved' in 1971, does that mean you could do whatever you liked afterwards? It all seems very strange to me.

Marke: God teaches Christians how to give personally, not how to force others to give.

[oldbadger]

Marke: God teaches Christians how to give personally, not how to force others to give.

Now I know that you do not know what God legislated. He absolutely ordered that if a community wanted to be successful that it would absolutely follow ALL of the laws, which included requirements to:-
Not demand payment from debtors when they can't pay exodus 22.24
Not to keep pledge-tools (of any kind) from owners who can't pay. Deut 24:12
Not to refuse a loan to a poor man Deut 15:9
Banned from taking pledges off widows Deut 24:17
All corners of fields and orchards to be left unharvested for the poor to feed upon. Lev 19:9
All of the taxation 3rd and 6th sabbatical years go to the poor. Deut14:28/29
Payed or not, ALL debts must be layed aside after 7years! Deut 15:2
Wealthy are obliged ordered to subsidise a poor man. Deut 15:7
EVERYBODY must support the poor according to their means. Deut 15:11
Forgotten sheaves or fruit may NOT be collected but must be left for the poor. (This could apply to business errors) Deut 24:18/20
Imperfect vibes or grapes must be left for poor ( this could apply to any business) Deut 24:21
Not to afflict widows or the poor. Exodus 22:21
NOT to Refrain fro helping a poor man!!! Deut 15:7

And if anybody thinks that Jesus ever redacted any of the above then they just don't know Jesus.

[marke]

Marke: God teaches Christians how to give personally, not how to force others to give.

Now I know that you do not know what God legislated. He absolutely ordered that if a community wanted to be successful that it would absolutely follow ALL of the laws, which included requirements to:-
Not demand payment from debtors when they can't pay exodus 22.24

Marke: I don't believe the message of Exodus 22 was addressed to the US government as an order to be followed.

Not to keep pledge-tools (of any kind) from owners who can't pay. Deut 24:12

Marke: Again, I hardly think a majority of US legislators think God is commanding them to obey Deuteronomy 24:12.

Not to refuse a loan to a poor man Deut 15:9
Banned from taking pledges off widows Deut 24:17
All corners of fields and orchards to be left unharvested for the poor to feed upon. Lev 19:9
All of the taxation 3rd and 6th sabbatical years go to the poor. Deut14:28/29
Payed or not, ALL debts must be layed aside after 7years! Deut 15:2
Wealthy are obliged ordered to subsidise a poor man. Deut 15:7
EVERYBODY must support the poor according to their means. Deut 15:11
Forgotten sheaves or fruit may NOT be collected but must be left for the poor. (This could apply to business errors) Deut 24:18/20
Imperfect vibes or grapes must be left for poor ( this could apply to any business) Deut 24:21
Not to afflict widows or the poor. Exodus 22:21
NOT to Refrain fro helping a poor man!!! Deut 15:7

And if anybody thinks that Jesus ever redacted any of the above then they just don't know Jesus.

Marke: Jesus never commanded the US government to follow certain OT laws.

[oldbadger]

Marke: I don't believe the message of Exodus 22 was addressed to the US government as an order to be followed.

Marke: Again, I hardly think a majority of US legislators think God is commanding them to obey Deuteronomy 24:12.


Marke: Jesus never commanded the US government to follow certain OT laws.

Absolutely!
Jesus isn't anywhere near the US government, so i can understand how it doesn't hear.
Does that make your country mostly pagan?

Both it and it's followers might be seen as a bit like the Pharisees, no?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #166]

Jesus never commanded the US government to follow certain OT laws.

Then I take it that you fully support the separation of church and state.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #154]

Yes, workers must settle for wages that are determined by the free market. Even if an owner wanted to exceed the wage rates set by the free market the free market pressures could then possibly put him out of business and everyone would then be out of a job.

Not if he's one of the biggest owners, they wouldn't. Look at the billions of dollars in subsidies given by the federal government to the fossil fuel industry on top of the billions it already makes in profit. Look at the tax breaks, research grants and patent extensions the Fed gives to big pharma on top of its profit.

The biggest capitalist enterprises get loads of unearned welfare which doesn't "trickle down" to workers. If you want to cut wasteful spending, that's the place to start.