"Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

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Miles
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"Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

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Post by Miles »

.

The disciple whom Jesus loved is referred to, specifically, six times in the book of John.


John 13:23-25
23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?

__________________________

John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

__________________________

John 20:1-2

The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

__________________________

John 21: 7
7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was
naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.

__________________________

John 21: 20-23
20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

__________________________

John 21: 24
24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.


As for which disciple Jesus was in love with, in the Wikipdia article: "Disciple whom Jesus loved"; the main candidate is none other than John himself

"Some scholars have additionally suggested a homoerotic interpretation of Christ's relationship with the Beloved Disciple, although such a scriptural reading is disputed . . . . Tilborg suggests that the portrait in the Gospel of John is "positively attuned to the development of possibly homosexual behaviour". . . .

The relationship between Christ and John was certainly interpreted by some as being of a physical erotic nature as early as the 16th century (albeit in a "heretical" context) - documented, for example, in the trial for blasphemy of Christopher Marlowe, who was accused of claiming that "St. John the Evangelist was bedfellow to Christ and leaned always in his bosom, that he used him as the sinners of Sodoma". In accusing Marlowe of the "sinful nature" of homosexual acts, James I of England inevitably invited comparisons to his own erotic relationship with the Duke of Buckingham which he also compared to that of the Beloved Disciple. Finally, Francesco Calcagno, a friar of Venicefaced trial and was executed in 1550 for claiming that "St. John was Christ's catamite".

Dynes also makes a link to the modern day where in 1970s New York a popular religious group was established called the "Church of the Beloved Disciple", with the intention of giving a positive reading of the relationship to support respect for same-sex love."


However, based on John 11:5: "Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus", and John 11:3 "Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick." some scholars feel Lazarus of Bethany is a better candidate,

Others, through a bit of tap dancing, have proposed that the beloved disciple was originally Mary Magdalene

Or, Jesus's beloved disciple may have been "a priestly member of a quasimonastic, mystical, and ascetic Jewish aristocracy, located on Jerusalem's prestigious southwest hill, who had hosted Jesus' last supper in that location"

Whatever the case, none of these scholars seem to have denied a homosexual connection with the Beloved Disciple. Even today there are those who believe Jesus was gay.




"Was Jesus gay? Probably"
.............by Paul Oestreicher

I preached on Good Friday that Jesus's intimacy with John suggested he was gay as I felt deeply it had to be addressed.

Jesus was a Hebrew rabbi. Unusually, he was unmarried. The idea that he had a romantic relationship with Mary Magdalene is the stuff of fiction, based on no biblical evidence. The evidence, on the other hand, that he may have been what we today call gay is very strong. But even gay rights campaigners in the church have been reluctant to suggest it. A significant exception was Hugh Montefiore, bishop of Birmingham and a convert from a prominent Jewish family. He dared to suggest that possibility and was met with disdain, as though he were simply out to shock.

After much reflection and with certainly no wish to shock, I felt I was left with no option but to suggest, for the first time in half a century of my Anglican priesthood, that Jesus may well have been homosexual. Had he been devoid of sexuality, he would not have been truly human. To believe that would be heretical.
source


SO, what do you, members of Debating Christianity and Religion, think? Jesus: likely gay or not?


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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #161

Post by AgnosticBoy »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:07 am
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:18 pm [Regarding 1 Corinthians 6 .. becoming one flesh with a prostitute]
Well even a married man sleeping with a prostitute still amounts to two people. ....
Pauls whole point is that to join what is already dedicated to someone with another is unlawful. He uses marriage to illustrate his argument as to why a consecrated Christian cannot commit spiritual immoraity. He is not saying that sex with a prostitute brings her too into a consecrated relationship but rather catagorizes such an act as an act if immorality.
The problem with a married man sleeping with a prostitute is not about the marital status of the man. As I've claimed before, if polygamy is allowed, then a man can sleep with additional women besides his first wife. The problem is the role of a prostitute. You don't sleep with prostitutes to commit to them in marriage, but rather you pay for sex without commitment. Jesus is against uniting with a woman who plays that role.

I also appreciate you clarifying that having sex does not automatically equal a marriage in God's eyes because then we'd have to question how that works with same-sex couples, or in cases of rape, or even how that would lead to de-facto polygamy when a married man sleeps with another woman, etc.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:07 am
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:18 pm [Regarding 1 Corinthians 6 .. becoming one flesh with a prostitute]
Well even a married man sleeping with a prostitute still amounts to two people. ....
Not if he also has previously had sex with his wife. The principle being that the sexual act creates an intimate and permanent bond or contract that should only have two people in it. A married man (or woman) that has sex with someone outside that two party contract at any time is violating the above, even if they do so outside of the physical presence of their partner. In short only two in a bed still brings a third party into the arrangement if one is married.
Earlier you said that sex does not equal marriage in God's eyes. But here you're saying that sex creates a "bond" or "contract". Your points appear to be inconsistent. Either way, I'll take your point as explained here.

Based on the last sentence of your point, it seems that you've acknowledged that a married man sleeping with a prostitute would amount to just two people having sex. But then you say that it violates an arrangement in that the man was only supposed to have just one sexual partner. This is the part you have not proven. I've already explained how Genesis 2:24 nor Matthew 19:5 do not prove the case. Do you disagree with my explanations for why those 2 passages don't support monogamy-only? If you disagree then you need to use logic and evidence to explain why instead of just repeating your claim while ignoring mine.
Last edited by AgnosticBoy on Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #162

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Miles wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:26 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:24 am Matthew 19:5 refers to the man's first marriage due to the fact that it says that he's leaving his parents' house. Even if it were not referring to a man's first marriage, my other points coming to play when that is still possible that there can be an exception to that rule.
Then cite the verse that proclaims a possible exception that would allow polygamy. Otherwise you're just Image and we can close our discussion here.


.
I thought I already made my case for God being okay with polygamy. If God is okay with polygamy, then clearly Genesis 2:24 or Matthew 19:5 does not prescribe monogamy. Even if they use words in the singular, but there is clearly more details in terms of God's actions and Law which show that polygamy was an exception and/or another allowable form of marriage. If you still disagree, then I made my case even more clearer by devoting topic to it:
What is the biblical view of polygamy?
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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #163

Post by JehovahsWitness »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:51 pm As I've claimed before, if polygamy is allowed, then a man can sleep with additional women besides his first wife.
1. Polygamy* is not allowed for Christians as Jesus stipulated only two people (a man and his wife ) to be the standard for his followers (compare 1 Tim 3:12)

2. A two-party marriage must be monagamous since sex outside of that marriage contract is presented in scripture as unlawful and immoral (1 Cor 6:16 )


POLYGAMY

(from Late Greek πολυγαμία, polygamía, "state of marriage to many spouses") is the practice of marrying multiple spouses. When a man is married to more than one wife at the same time, sociologists call this polygyny. When a woman is married to more than one husband at a time, it is called polyandry.

- Wikipedia


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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:48 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #164

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:32 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:51 pm As I've claimed before, if polygamy is allowed, then a man can sleep with additional women besides his first wife.
1. Polygamy* is not allowed for Christians as Jesus stipulated only two people (a man and his wife ) to be the standard for his followers

2. Sex outside of that marriage contract is presented in scripture as unlawful and immoral (1 Cor 6:16)
1 Corinthians 6:16
16 The Scriptures say, “The two people will become one.” So you should know that anyone who is joined with a prostitute becomes one with her in body.

As just about every teenager and adult in the world are aware, sex outside the marriage contract need not involve a prostitute. Got something more relevant?


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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #165

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:02 pm... sex outside the marriage contract need not involve a prostitute.
Did I say sex outside the marriage contract need involve a prostitute?
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #166

Post by myth-one.com »


Miles wrote: Was Jesus Gay?
I think happy, joyful, cheerful, or brilliant would be more appropriate. :D

Jesus was the "Word made flesh":

For what it's worth (if anything), The Word was neither heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual because there's no sex in Heaven.

Bummer!


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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #167

Post by Difflugia »

PinSeeker wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:27 pmJesus refers directly to the establishment of the institution of marriage, and it was established by God the Father, as shown previously, as heterosexual and monogamous.
You've asserted this repeatedly, but never shown it.
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:27 pmAs I said, Laban [Lamech] is the first person to practice polygamy, and is obviously sinful in doing so.
Neither Lamech's polygamous marriage nor any other in the Bible is ever described even obliquely as sinful, so what makes it obvious to you?

The same argument has been (I think just as incorrectly) made for vegetarianism. Genesis 1:29 and 2:16 "show" that God "established" an exclusively vegetarian diet for human beings. Is every biblical description of eating meat also describing sin?
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:27 pm
Difflugia wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:25 pm Considering how interwoven polygamy is into the narrative of Israel's history and your suggestion that it might be reversed by overinterpreting a single verse...
Who's doing that? Certainly not me, despite your opinion. As I said, My proof text, if you want to call it that, it really the first 19 chapters of Genesis. In truth really much more than that, but that should be enough to get one well on his/her way, anyway.
Then you should be able to find a verse (or pericope as a whole) that disparages polygamy somewhere in those 19 chapters.

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #168

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:06 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:02 pm... sex outside the marriage contract need not involve a prostitute.
Did I say sex outside the marriage contract need involve a prostitute?
If you didn't think it did then why cite 1 Cor 6:16 explaining why "sex outside of that marriage contract is presented in scripture as unlawful and immoral"?

"2. Sex outside of that marriage contract is presented in scripture as unlawful and immoral ( 1 Cor 6:16)"



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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #169

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:23 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:06 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:02 pm... sex outside the marriage contract need not involve a prostitute.
Did I say sex outside the marriage contract need involve a prostitute?
If you didn't think it did then why cite 1 Cor 6:16 explaining why "sex outside of that marriage contract is presented in scripture as unlawful and immoral"?

"2. Sex outside of that marriage contract is presented in scripture as unlawful and immoral ( 1 Cor 6:16)"



.


Because the biblical principle is applicable whether sex is with a prostitute or not.





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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #170

Post by JehovahsWitness »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:51 pmBut then you say that it violates an arrangement in that the man was only supposed to have just one sexual partner. This is the part you have not proven.
No, according to bible law a man or a woman are to restrict their sexual activity to their marriage partner alone. Everything outside of that amounts to fornication (sexual immorality).


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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:48 pm, edited 4 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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