The Demands of Occupy Wall Street

[WinePusher]

People at occupy wall street have released unofficial lists of demands here and there. There are apparently many out there and they don't seem to correspond to eachtother, but here's one unofficial list of demands:

-Demand 1: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending “Freetrade� by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.
-Demand 2: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.
-Demand 3: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.
-Demand 4: Free college education.
-Demand 5: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.
-Demand 6: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.
-Demand 7: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America’s nuclear power plants.
-Demand 8: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.
-Demand 9: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.
-Demand 10: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.
-Demand 11: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the “Books.� World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the “Books.� And I don’t mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.
-Demand 12: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.
-Demand 13: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

http://toddkinsey.com/blog/2011/10/08/o ... f-demands/

1) What do you make of these demands? Are they reasonable or unreasonable?
2) In a list of demands seperate from this list, OWS protestors have expressed disapproval towards the ruling in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commision. Do you agree or disagree with the ruling?
3) Although absent from the list of demands, OWS have expressed disdainment towards what they percieve to be a growing gap between the top 1% of society and the remaining 99% of society. What is the truth regarding wealth and income inequality?

[chris_brown207]

So if you don't know exactly what is produced by illegals with your guesses, how is anybody else going to? You make no sense.

Wow, okay let me break this down in kindergarten terms - I know exactly who picked MY produce because I meet the people who run the farms and do the labor (at most of these locations, the people are one in the same). You are the one who has to resort to rolling the dice every time you buy from a major retailer.

Let me repeat my previous statement - 40% of my produce this year was verified... So, since you have such trouble reading between the lines, I know for a fact who picked and grew 40% of my produce because it was not bought from stores, but from local farmers and ranchers and even people who just have gardens in their back yards - people who we have taken a small amount of time out of our weekly schedule to get to know and visit. (And as a side benefit - most of that produce has been amazing since it is pulled off the plant ripe. It is not pulled off under-ripe, and then artificially ripened en route to the stores)

And since you have trouble putting two and two together - buying from verified producers takes money out of the pockets of those who resort to illegal labor and rewards those who do it the right way. Take an econ class sometime and learn a little bit more about supply and demand. In the meantime, your strategy of whine and vote sure has fixed the problem for us. Keep up the good work, and let me know when our economy is fixed.

Oh - and as for your wall solution... WHO do you think would actually be MAKING that wall???

I don't think I will waste anymore time on you. As they say - it is impossible for someone to understand something when it is in their best interest not too. (I.e. It is much more comfortable for you to sit and blame, then to get up and learn)

[chris_brown207]

I have learned that a small part of the farm where I grew up in Michigan is now being used as a specialty farm which sells most of its produce at a local Farmer's Market. The rest of the old farm is now a big housing development. The response at the Farmer's Market has been wonderful. The demand is certainly there, but I am afraid that the operation is mostly a hobby and not a potential large-scale money-making enterprise. They hire an occasional local teen-ager to help. The demand is there, but the profit potential for such operations is very limited. As a businessman, I am sure you are familiar with the term "profit."

John

And as a consumer - I am sure you are familiar with the term "demand". Profits margins increase as demand does. If you don't buy from them, then it is kind of spurious for you to speak about their lack of profitability.

Especially when we fund the corporations which follow some of the principles that you and others on this site have railed against - outsourcing American jobs, funding illegal immigrants, and not giving back to the communities which they populate. In 1995, 6% of Wal-Mart produce was not made in the USA. In 2004, that number was over 60%. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... reffi.html

If you have your way - illegal immigration will be gone anyways. So why not start living what you preach today - and give back to those who actually do produce their product locally and by actual citizens?

[JohnPaul]

I have learned that a small part of the farm where I grew up in Michigan is now being used as a specialty farm which sells most of its produce at a local Farmer's Market. The rest of the old farm is now a big housing development. The response at the Farmer's Market has been wonderful. The demand is certainly there, but I am afraid that the operation is mostly a hobby and not a potential large-scale money-making enterprise. They hire an occasional local teen-ager to help. The demand is there, but the profit potential for such operations is very limited. As a businessman, I am sure you are familiar with the term "profit."

John

And as a consumer - I am sure you are familiar with the term "demand". Profits margins increase as demand does. If you don't buy from them, then it is kind of spurious for you to speak about their lack of profitability.

Especially when we fund the corporations which follow some of the principles that you and others on this site have railed against - outsourcing American jobs, funding illegal immigrants, and not giving back to the communities which they populate. In 1995, 6% of Wal-Mart produce was not made in the USA. In 2004, that number was over 60%. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... reffi.html

If you have your way - illegal immigration will be gone anyways. So why not start living what you preach today - and give back to those who actually do produce their product locally and by actual citizens?

I grew up on a small farm, remember? So my views on the economics of the situation may be a little more realistic than yours. I don't know what the population of Boise is now, but I am sure that it is far more than the 50,000 or so that it was when I was there. How many of these small farmers picking the produce ripe off the plant and delivering it within hours to the entire population of Boise would it take? How many to provide enough to last for the entire year, not just during harvest time? Selling produce at a Farmer's Market may be fun for the wife and kids, but it hardly supports a family. Farmers desperately produce whatever mass crops are most profitable for them, and even then go bankrupt by the millions.

Your way may work for you and a few others, but it is an unrealistic and utopian vision for the entire population of the country. I don't like the way things are now any more than you do, but the only way I can see to return to the "utopia" of the past when an overwhelming majority of the population was agricultural, is to kill off three-quarters of the population of the country and then put a majority of the rest to work on small farms, producing their own food and living in blissful contentment and plenty. Does that sound workable to you?

I really do wish your ideas were workable on a large scale.

John

[chris_brown207]

I grew up on a small farm, remember? So my views on the economics of the situation may be a little more realistic than yours. I don't know what the population of Boise is now, but I am sure that it is far more than the 50,000 or so that it was when I was there. How many of these small farmers picking the produce ripe off the plant and delivering it within hours to the entire population of Boise would it take? How many to provide enough to last for the entire year, not just during harvest time? Selling produce at a Farmer's Market may be fun for the wife and kids, but it hardly supports a family. Farmers desperately produce whatever mass crops are most profitable for them, and even then go bankrupt by the millions.

Your way may work for you and a few others, but it is an unrealistic and utopian vision for the entire population of the country. I don't like the way things are now any more than you do, but the only way I can see to return to the "utopia" of the past when an overwhelming majority of the population was agricultural, is to kill off three-quarters of the population of the country and then put a majority of the rest to work on small farms, producing their own food and living in blissful contentment and plenty. Does that sound workable to you?

I really do wish your ideas were workable on a large scale.

John

Who is talking about feeding the whole population? I am just talking about starting as individual citizens. Heck, my wife and I only got to around 40% of our needs being filled this year by local produce. Next year, we will increase a little more.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither was Wal-Mart. Most movements start at the grass roots level. My entire point is that it is a much more productive way of spurring change than flame spraying on sites like this (not that you were doing the flame spraying). I have much more respect for those who mix words with actions, then just words alone. It is easier for me to listen to those who live what they speak, and walk what they talk. Buying from major corporations is being a little hypocritical, because most of them profit from immigrant labor - legal and otherwise. I myself still shop there, but this year my family has greatly reduced our reliance on them and have brought a little more back to my community.

The more we increase demand for local, the more the supply will grow to fill it (or have we always depended on Wal-Mart to fill our needs?). Correct me if I am wrong, but my mothers generation lived and bought local. They would walk to the corner store which was owned by a local merchant, and get everything they needed from local vendors. We may not be there today, but who knows. At the very least you can say that you have taken steps to return business back to Americans, even if they are baby steps initially. This to me is much more productive than just waiting for politicians to get their act together, or placing your vote every two years.

[WinePusher]

Let's get rid of the dumb idea that a consumer who is against illegal immigration and purchases products from a company who utilizes illegal immigrant labor is hypocritical. People like chris_brown207 have the nerve to issue a charge of hypocrisy towards people who buy from companies who use immigrant labor, but would decry any effort to secure the border, or penalize companies for hiring illegals, or have the federal government enforce workforce raids. What is really hypocritical is this:

Wow, okay let me break this down in kindergarten terms.

I don't think I will waste anymore time on you. As they say - it is impossible for someone to understand something when it is in their best interest not too. (I.e. It is much more comfortable for you to sit and blame, then to get up and learn).

But then again, my recommendations require that you do a little bit of work. I wouldn't want to rob you of the opportunity to whine and complain and do nothing about an issue you can actually have an impact on now.

First, drop the attitude. You do not to further your position with unneeded acrimony.

and this:

dude, use caps and paragraphs, K?

chris_brown207, I don't have a problem with a debate getting heated up and members making jabs at one another in a civil, yet witty manner. But if you're going to engage in such a tactic, don't condemn others who do too, 'K'?

And Slopeshoulder, you of all people shouldn't be lecturing other members on how they write up their posts. In post 12 you stated that you have an eye motor disability that undermines your proof reading skills. Perhaps socialisview also has a eye motor disability that also undermines his capability to proof read his posts. So someone like you really should be handing out grammar advice. But if you are, at least take your own advice:

dude, use caps and paragraphs, K?

Dude, use caps and paragraphs, OK?

[chris_brown207]

Let's get rid of the dumb idea that a consumer who is against illegal immigration and purchases products from a company who utilizes illegal immigrant labor is hypocritical. People like chris_brown207 have the nerve to issue a charge of hypocrisy towards people who buy from companies who use immigrant labor, but would decry any effort to secure the border, or penalize companies for hiring illegals, or have the federal government enforce workforce raids. What is really hypocritical is this:

Wow, okay let me break this down in kindergarten terms.

I don't think I will waste anymore time on you. As they say - it is impossible for someone to understand something when it is in their best interest not too. (I.e. It is much more comfortable for you to sit and blame, then to get up and learn).

But then again, my recommendations require that you do a little bit of work. I wouldn't want to rob you of the opportunity to whine and complain and do nothing about an issue you can actually have an impact on now.

First, drop the attitude. You do not to further your position with unneeded acrimony.

and this:

dude, use caps and paragraphs, K?

chris_brown207, I don't have a problem with a debate getting heated up and members making jabs at one another in a civil, yet witty manner. But if you're going to engage in such a tactic, don't condemn others who do too, 'K'?

And Slopeshoulder, you of all people shouldn't be lecturing other members on how they write up their posts. In post 12 you stated that you have an eye motor disability that undermines your proof reading skills. Perhaps socialisview also has a eye motor disability that also undermines his capability to proof read his posts. So someone like you really should be handing out grammar advice. But if you are, at least take your own advice:

dude, use caps and paragraphs, K?

Dude, use caps and paragraphs, OK?

Getting lectured on debate etiquette by Winepusher... Let me get my Apocalypse shelter ready now.

[Jester]

Moderator Warning

Ignorance is not an excuse. Pretend not to understand as you wish.

Personal comments are neither pertinent to debate, nor allowed under the rules. There were several in this post - be sure to stick to the issues.

What, didn't recognize your handy work? I am just reflecting your own tendencies. Check my posts to all of the other posters... I give respect to those who give it in return. You are the recipient of snide remarks because you are the quickest to give them to others. Be respectful when dealing with people, even when you disagree, and you will find you will get the same in return.

Tit for tat incivility is, like all other forms of incivility, not allowed on this site. It has been the moderators decision that "you started it" is not a valid excuse.
As such, if a member makes an uncivil remark, please report it - but otherwise ignore the matter.

Please review our Rules.

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[WinePusher]

Whoops, just read Jester's comment. I'll let the moderators take care of it from now on .

[Slopeshoulder]

And Slopeshoulder, you of all people shouldn't be lecturing other members on how they write up their posts.

A sentence, having to do with common courtesy and forum rules/practices, is a lecture?
Wow. That's an amazing leap you made there.

I just burped.

Is that prophecy?

I just felt a tingle down below when the missus sighed.

Does that mean a baby's on the way?

In post 12 you stated that you have an eye motor disability that undermines your proof reading skills. Perhaps socialisview also has a eye motor disability that also undermines his capability to proof read his posts.

True dat. Maybee he duz. But I surmised that it was a stylistic choice, or a capitulation. I live within that analysis and assume all risks and possible exposure associated with it. From what position to you feel able to judge otherwise?
Um...are we on topic?

So someone like you really should be handing out grammar advice.

Why not? I have a superb command of grammar. You do realize that missed typos and bad grammar are two different things, right?
And I didn't lecture.
But it was about style and punctuation anyway, not grammar.
Again, do you know the difference? It would appear not. But I am happy to provide a well-intended lecture if you're interested and would find it helpful.

But if you are,

I wasn't actually.

at least take your own advice:

Um, I'm pretty sure when measured by length, tone, and intent, you're the one who's lecturing.
JC in a chicken basket, that's funny.

dude, use caps and paragraphs, K?

Dude, use caps and paragraphs, OK?

No, because, you see, I was doing a stylistic flourish to make a point. I knew how to do it "correctly." I chose not to for effect. Is this lost on you? Does your mind really work that way, or are you just being difficult because we are known to despise each other so much, if we are honest, and you just couldn't resist? Or do you have other skin in the game that inspired you to leap in? A passion for libertarian punctuation ideology perhaps? A deep commitment to the fundamental(ist?) linguistic preservationist conservative notion that OK must never eber eber yield to K?

Can we get back to the topic?

Either way, I'm a better person for your intervention...NOT.
(Note: the NOT connotes humor and contradiction, so I'm really saying I'm not a better person and that your intervention is useless to me. I hope this parenthetical clarification has been useful).

Folks, IMHO, I am really GOOD at what I just did. Oh yeah, you know what I'm talkin' about. Hell yeah!!
Dang that was fun!!
Bed time...

[WinePusher]

Congratulations, you managed to type up an entire post on here without cussing. Must have been so difficult for you.

And Slopeshoulder, you of all people shouldn't be lecturing other members on how they write up their posts.

A sentence, having to do with common courtesy and forum rules/practices, is a lecture? Wow. That's an amazing leap you made there.

Right, I forgot. You don't have a 'command' of rhetorical devices or vocabulary so it really shouldn't be of any surpise that you'd ask such a question like this. But it's not my job to educate you in basic vocabulary Slopeshoulder, go get the motivation to do it yourself.

In post 12 you stated that you have an eye motor disability that undermines your proof reading skills. Perhaps socialisview also has a eye motor disability that also undermines his capability to proof read his posts.

True dat. Maybee he duz.

Ask him next time before you run around handing out worthless, unwanted advice.

So someone like you really should be handing out grammar advice.

Why not? I have a superb command of grammar. You do realize that missed typos and bad grammar are two different things, right? And I didn't lecture. But it was about style and punctuation anyway, not grammar. Again, do you know the difference? It would appear not. But I am happy to provide a well-intended lecture if you're interested and would find it helpful.

You have a superb command of grammar? You really don't because paragraphs fall under the category of grammar and you admitted here that you don't know that, so your 'command' of grammar is extraordinarily weak.

No, because, you see, I was doing a stylistic flourish to make a point.

You should go study actual writing so you can incorporate actual style into your posts. According to actual writing standards, what you wrote is considered trash, not 'stylistic flourish.'

Does your mind really work that way, or are you just being difficult because we are known to despise each other so much, if we are honest, and you just couldn't resist?

Of course I couldn't resist. You flaunt your hundreds of capitalization, punctuation and grammatical errors around this forum and have the nerve to lecture a new member on the subject of capitalization and punctuation? And you do it in such an arrogant manner. And I don't despise you. I don't care about you. I do know that you despise many people on here as evidenced by all your juvenille cussing, but that's your problem. I'd hate myself if I was like you and despised people over the internet .

A passion for libertarian punctuation ideology perhaps? A deep commitment to the fundamental(ist?) linguistic preservationist conservative notion that OK must never eber eber yield to K?

All you're doing is throwing out words you don't understand since you possess no knowledge of politics or political ideologies.

Folks, IMHO, I am really GOOD at what I just did. Oh yeah, you know what I'm talkin' about. Hell yeah!!
Dang that was fun!! Bed time...

What did you just do? Publicily display your arrogance. Yea, you are extremely good at doing that. And you thought it was fun, you have no shame .