Should Israel continue to exist as a Jewish nation?

[Zzyzx]

Is there any reason that Israel should continue to exist as a Jewish nation?

Modern Israel was imposed on lands of other people by Harry Truman (the most powerful leader after WWII). Many consider the creation of modern Israel to have been a great mistake by Truman (somewhat on par with the use of atomic weapons against Japan after it had offered to surrender and the conduct of an undeclared war in Korea).

There is reason to suspect that Israel may cease to exist as a nation in the event of an expanded war in the Middle East precipitated by an attack by Israel or the US upon Iran.

It is known that Iran and other Arab nations have been supplied with Russian weapons, particularly missiles, some of which are atomic-capable. It is not known with certainty (to the best of my knowledge) whether atomic warheads have been supplied for those missiles; however, there is suspicion and suggestion that they have.

Other unknowns in the Middle East situation are the intentions of other concerned parties. We do not know with certainty which nations will or have lent support or weapons to Iran. Opening Pandora’s Box could be an apt description of the outcome of further Christian / Jewish attacks upon Islamic nations.

There is a strong possibility that an attack on Iran will result in a devastating counterattack upon Israel (and upon US interests and warships in the area) with advanced weapons, some of which may be atomic. An atomic counterattack would be justified if there is an unwarranted “preemptive” attack against Iran, particularly one involving atomic weapons.

War hawks say there is no danger of massive or atomic retaliation; however, they are the same people that said Iraq invasion and occupation would be a “cake walk” and who said “mission accomplished” in Iraq long ago.

Israel exists now only because it is supported economically and militarily by the US.

My question is: Is there any reason that Israel should continue to exist as a Jewish nation? And why?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 136 by Willum]

Right....your statement that the Jews, Christians and Muslims existed in harmony for over 2000 years before the nation of modern Israel came into existence...becomes a complete TRUTH after your attempted deflection that proves that you are no bigoted liar. I am grateful that you cleared that up....before you presented this post that contradicted your previous post....I was for sure that you were a bigot. But its clear.....Jews are alright by you...you would never consider making an outright false statement that contradicts history actual due to personal bias.

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[Monta]

[Replying to post 140 by Elijah John]

"To those who believe in reparations for slavery etc, isn't giving the perpetually persecuted Jews a tiny nation of their own the LEAST the world can do for them? "

The world thought it was a good idea and we had Balfour Declaration but Jews still prefer to live in Paris, New York, London, Australia...

As for the only democracy in ME, ask any Israeli Arab. There are two laws, one for the Jews the other for Arabs in Israel.

[Zzyzx]

.

You make great points though about Israel being the main, if not only Democracy in the Middle East, with many freedoms we Americans and Westerners enjoy.

That alone, Israel being the bastion of democracy in a sea of Theocratic Islamic tyranny, is reason enough to support Israel's survival as a nation.

Perhaps the term "Theocratic quasi-democracy" better describes a state in which Non-Jewish citizens of Israel (with few exceptions) are evidently not permitted to vote in national elections. Someone correct this if in error.

To those who believe in reparations for slavery etc, isn't giving the perpetually persecuted Jews a tiny nation of their own the LEAST the world can do for them?

Shall we "give" land to other persecuted people – land that others have lived on for many generations and centuries?

Especially the track of land that is the home of their ancestors?

Home of their ancestors? The majority of Jews in Israel trace ancestry to Europe, Russia and the Americas
.
The number of Jews in Israel is approximately six million (similar to the US SMSA areas of Washington DC or Dallas / Ft. Worth or Philadelphia)

Today, Jews whose family immigrated from European countries and the Americas, on their paternal line, constitute the largest single group among Israeli Jews and consist of about 3,000,000[55] people living in Israel. About 1,200,000 of them are descended from or are immigrants from the former Soviet Union who returned from the diaspora after the fall of the Former Soviet Union 1991 (about 300,000 of them are not considered to be Jewish under halakha). Most of the other 1,800,000 are descended from the first Zionist settlers in the Land of Israel, as well as Holocaust survivors and their descendants, with an additional 200,000 having immigrated or descended from immigrants from English-speaking countries and South America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_J ... _of_origin

Approximately 75% of the population of Israel is Jewish. Here is a breakdown of their "ancestors" (father side) by country of origin.

Makeup of Jewish Population of Israel by Patrilineal

Country of Origin[25] TOTAL 5,818,000 100%
Russia/USSR 1,018,000 20.9%
Poland 400,000 8.3%
Romania 351,000 7.6%
Other Europe 168,000 3.7%
USA/Canada/Australia/NZ 165,000 2.8%
Germany/Austria 160,000 2.7%
Bulgaria/Greece 97,000 1.9%
South America 82,000 1.4%
Hungary 63,000 1.3%
Czechoslovakia 60,000 1.2%
UK/Ireland 40,000 0.4%
South Africa 20,000 0.4%
Morocco 800,000 15.2%
Iraq 404,000 7.7%
Yemen 295,000 4.9%
Iran 236,000 4.0%
Algeria/Tunisia 224,000 3.8%
France 150,000 2.5%
Other Asia 150,000 2.5%
Turkey 147,000 2.5%
Libya 136,000 2.3%
Egypt 112,000 1.9%
Other Asia 200,000 1.7%
India/Pakistan 76,000 1.3%
South America 25,000 0.4%
Other Africa 3,000 0.05%
Ethiopia 130,000 2.2%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelis

Lands of their ancestors? Wouldn't that be somewhere in Russia / Poland / Europe?

[Elijah John]

Lands of their ancestors? Wouldn't that be somewhere in Russia / Poland / Europe?

The ancestors of those Russian, Polish and Euoropean Jews were from Palestine. Unless, of course, they were all converts.

Not allowed to vote? Not only are they allowed to vote, but they have formed their own political parties and alliances.

And if they were not allowed to vote, why did radical Rabbi Meir Kahane advocate the expulsion of Arabic Israelis FROM Israel. Answer, he feared Israel would lose it's identity as a Jewish state because Arabic reproduction rates was exponentially higher than Jewish reproduction rates...and they could VOTE.

Regarding rights of Arabic Israel citizens, this from Wikipedia:

------------------------

Arab political parties

There are three mainstream Arab parties in Israel: Hadash (a joint Arab-Jewish party with a large Arab presence), Balad, and the United Arab List, which is a coalition of several different political organizations including the Islamic Movement in Israel. In addition to these, there is Ta'al. All of these parties primarily represent Arab-Israeli and Palestinian interests, and the Islamic Movement is an Islamist organization with two factions: one that opposes Israel's existence, and another that opposes its existence as a Jewish state. Two Arab parties ran in Israel's first election in 1949, with one, the Democratic List of Nazareth, winning two seats. Until the 1960s all Arab parties in the Knesset were aligned with Mapai, the ruling party.

A minority of Arabs join and vote for Zionist parties; in the 2006 elections 30% of the Arab vote went to such parties, up from 25% in 2003,[126] though down on the 1999 (30.5%) and 1996 elections (33.4%).[127] Left-wing parties (i.e. Labor Party and Meretz-Yachad, and previously One Nation) are the most popular parties amongst Arabs, though some Druze have also voted for right-wing parties such as Likud and Yisrael Beiteinu, as well as the centrist Kadima.[128][129]

Arab-dominated parties typically do not join governing coalitions. However, historically these parties have formed alliances with dovish Israeli parties and promoted the formation of their governments by voting with them from the opposition. Arab parties are credited with keeping Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin in power, and they have suggested they would do the same for a government led by Labor leader Isaac Herzog and peace negotiator Tzipi Livni.[130][131] A 2015 Haaretz poll found that a majority of Israeli Arabs would like their parties, then running on a joint list, to join the governing coalition.[132]


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If voting rights are an indication, seems Arabs in Israel enjoy full rights as citizens, but are not required to partake of military service, although they can if they want to.

Not only are they allowed to vote, they are allowed to have anti-Israeli parties, such as "the Islamic Movement is an Islamist organization with two factions: one that opposes Israel's existence, and another that opposes its existence as a Jewish state. "

One thing seems certain, however, Israel treats it's Arab citizens far better than Muslim countries treat their Jews.

Let me ask this to all who opposes Israel's survival as a nation, what (or who) would you like to see replace Israel?

[Monta]

[Replying to post 144 by Elijah John]

"Regarding rights of Arabic Israel citizens, this from Wikipedia:" = Jewish bias.
Tell them positive ignore the negative.

"Arab citizens of Israel face entrenched discrimination in all fields of life. In recent years, the prevalent attitude of hostility and mistrust towards Arab citizens has become more pronounced, with large sections of the Israeli public viewing the Arab minority as both a fifth column and a demographic threat. There are glaring socioeconomic differences between Jewish and Arab population groups, particularly with regard to land, urban planning, housing, infrastructure, economic development, and education. Over half of the poor families in Israel are Arab families, and Arab municipalities constitute the poorest municipalities within Israel."
http://www.acri.org.il/en/category/arab ... ty-rights/

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 144 by Elijah John]

"Regarding rights of Arabic Israel citizens, this from Wikipedia:" = Jewish bias.
Tell them positive ignore the negative.

"Arab citizens of Israel face entrenched discrimination in all fields of life. In recent years, the prevalent attitude of hostility and mistrust towards Arab citizens has become more pronounced, with large sections of the Israeli public viewing the Arab minority as both a fifth column and a demographic threat. There are glaring socioeconomic differences between Jewish and Arab population groups, particularly with regard to land, urban planning, housing, infrastructure, economic development, and education. Over half of the poor families in Israel are Arab families, and Arab municipalities constitute the poorest municipalities within Israel."
http://www.acri.org.il/en/category/arab ... ty-rights/

These "feelings" of hostility are subjective and are not the same as legal discrimination. People can and do respect the rights of people they do not like.

You cannot legislate social acceptance or good will.

Accusing me of Jewish bias? Perhaps, but I could (but will not) just as easily accuse Israel's detractors of anti-Semitism.

If I am biased towards Jews and the state of Israel I would say that is because they have EARNED the benefit of the doubt.

[Willum]

You make great points though about Israel being the main, if not only Democracy in the Middle East, with many freedoms we Americans and Westerners enjoy.

This is very incorrect.
Turkey is the biggest best democratic ally the US and Europe has.
As ex-military I can say pretty surely we do not regard Israel as an ally.
Heck Israel is the only military nation to attack the US-The USS Liberty.
http://www.gtr5.com/
that's the nice version, I've talked to a survivor about how Israel strafed people in life boats after surrender.
We've attacked everyone else.

But EJ has already commented about how this is OK since they paid reparations.
They commit genocide of Palestinian Christians, extent since Jesus, kill generations of non-militarized Palestinians, it's OK.

We came to the conclusion in a different thread-Judo Christianity doesn't mind genocide: Inquisition, Manifest Destiny, Stalin, Aztec's, etc., but if you should lose-you're evil.

So, anyway, it is a media invention that Israel is an ally or democracy.

Wikipedia can show you the extensive list of allies in the region. You will be surprised, who is on it, by treaty, and who isn't.

[bluedog]

[Replying to post 140 by Elijah John]

Why attempt to use a book of symbols (the Book of Rev.) and apply a literal meaning to it in the attempt to dismiss Books that are not symbolic in nature with no ambiguity whatsoever? The opinion of others that do not take their doctrine from the original source of Christian doctrine...the word of God....or attempt to translate a book of symbols by having that translation "contradict" other perfectly clear text is not acceptable as "evidence". After all...the entire Bible was inspired by the same Holy Spirit and in the case of Rev. the author, John clearly states that the Book is not to be taken literally....because it is filled with "signs" or symbols...that were demonstrated to him by Jesus through an Angel. And they are things that are to take place "shortly".

Further....this book was addressed to the 7 churches in Asia...during the later parts of the 1st century, as history tells us that it was John who authored this Book while on the Isle of Patmos around 70AD.

The things revealed to John by Jesus through an angel would shortly come to pass -- Rev. 1:1. Would you consider 2000 years "shortly"? Again, "....for the time near" -- Rev. 1:3 And once more the warning is made, ".....things must shortly take place.." -- Rev. 22:6 and repeated again, "....DO NOT SEAL THIS BOOK THE TIME IS AT HAND." Rev. 22:10

John was not addressing the world at large or future Christians, he was addressing the 7 churches of Asia (symbolic....not literal) during the 1st century, as the book of prophecy was "signified" meaning, symbolic or figuratively, not literal. Rev. 1:1, 4 The book was signified to THE SERVANTS of CHRIST, those who could understand the symbolism Rev. 1

Of course....there are some passages that address the 2nd coming of Christ...but the majority address THINGS shortly to come.

The number one rule of thumb? Nothing in the Book of Rev. that is translated should be translated to contradict another portion of the scripture....as The Spirit of God would never contradict Himself.

During this time period the early church of Christ...the Kingdom of God/Heaven was being heavily persecuted by the Roman Empire the majority of the symbolism deals with ROME and Jerusalem had just been wiped off the face of the earth by the Roman Empire in 70AD.

Another example of how some people misapply this Book of Symbols....some would "swear" that its the Anti-Christ being talked about...when the word is never mentioned, either literally or symbolically in the Book of Rev. While there is no place in the Bible that describes the Anti-Christ as a single person....as John tells us that anyone that does not agree that Jesus is the Christ is one of many anti-christs.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 148 by bluedog]

There is a phenomenon called paraledolia which means when the human mind is confronted with enough noise:

Conflicting statements, numbers attached to unrelated things, like the number churches for example.

The brain will try to make sense and see patterns in them, where none exist.

Since after thousands of years of debate, even the greatest minds have not been able to draw coherence out of the items in your post, isn't it most likely this phenomena is in action?

[Monta]

The UN Special Rapporteur on human rights in Palestine resigned Monday, citing frustration at Israel’s denial of access to Palestinian territories.

His applications for access both written and oral were repeatedly rejected.
Wibisono isn’t the first envoy to encounter difficulties with Israel. His predecessor Richard Falk’s outspoken views on the treatment of Palestinians led to several calls for his resignation by Israel. In particular, he backed a boycott of Israeli companies allegedly exploiting Palestinian resources.

So now the question is why is Israel denying the access to someone representing UN? What is he going to find, to hear, to see? Israel at its best, a blockade by the only democracy in ME?

15 IDF soldiers committed suicide last year.