Should Israel continue to exist as a Jewish nation?

[Zzyzx]

Is there any reason that Israel should continue to exist as a Jewish nation?

Modern Israel was imposed on lands of other people by Harry Truman (the most powerful leader after WWII). Many consider the creation of modern Israel to have been a great mistake by Truman (somewhat on par with the use of atomic weapons against Japan after it had offered to surrender and the conduct of an undeclared war in Korea).

There is reason to suspect that Israel may cease to exist as a nation in the event of an expanded war in the Middle East precipitated by an attack by Israel or the US upon Iran.

It is known that Iran and other Arab nations have been supplied with Russian weapons, particularly missiles, some of which are atomic-capable. It is not known with certainty (to the best of my knowledge) whether atomic warheads have been supplied for those missiles; however, there is suspicion and suggestion that they have.

Other unknowns in the Middle East situation are the intentions of other concerned parties. We do not know with certainty which nations will or have lent support or weapons to Iran. Opening Pandora’s Box could be an apt description of the outcome of further Christian / Jewish attacks upon Islamic nations.

There is a strong possibility that an attack on Iran will result in a devastating counterattack upon Israel (and upon US interests and warships in the area) with advanced weapons, some of which may be atomic. An atomic counterattack would be justified if there is an unwarranted “preemptive” attack against Iran, particularly one involving atomic weapons.

War hawks say there is no danger of massive or atomic retaliation; however, they are the same people that said Iraq invasion and occupation would be a “cake walk” and who said “mission accomplished” in Iraq long ago.

Israel exists now only because it is supported economically and militarily by the US.

My question is: Is there any reason that Israel should continue to exist as a Jewish nation? And why?

[Nickman]

Is there any reason that Israel should continue to exist as a Jewish nation?

1. Modern Israel was imposed on lands of other people by Harry Truman (the most powerful leader after WWII). Many consider the creation of modern Israel to have been a great mistake by Truman (somewhat on par with the use of atomic weapons against Japan after it had offered to surrender and the conduct of an undeclared war in Korea).

2. There is reason to suspect that Israel may cease to exist as a nation in the event of an expanded war in the Middle East precipitated by an attack by Israel or the US upon Iran.

3. It is known that Iran and other Arab nations have been supplied with Russian weapons, particularly missiles, some of which are atomic-capable. It is not known with certainty (to the best of my knowledge) whether atomic warheads have been supplied for those missiles; however, there is suspicion and suggestion that they have.

4. Other unknowns in the Middle East situation are the intentions of other concerned parties. We do not know with certainty which nations will or have lent support or weapons to Iran. Opening Pandora�s Box could be an apt description of the outcome of further Christian / Jewish attacks upon Islamic nations.

5. There is a strong possibility that an attack on Iran will result in a devastating counterattack upon Israel (and upon US interests and warships in the area) with advanced weapons, some of which may be atomic. An atomic counterattack would be justified if there is an unwarranted �preemptive� attack against Iran, particularly one involving atomic weapons.

5. War hawks say there is no danger of massive or atomic retaliation; however, they are the same people that said Iraq invasion and occupation would be a �cake walk� and who said �mission accomplished� in Iraq long ago.

6. Israel exists now only because it is supported economically and militarily by the US.

7. My question is: Is there any reason that Israel should continue to exist as a Jewish nation? And why?

1. We need to make a differentiation between Israel and Zionism. Zionism in Palestine is not Israel, it is occupation and tyranny. The people who claim Zionism have no claim to Palestine. If I were to go to the home of my deceased relatives from several generations ago, and claim that this land is mine because my ancestors lived here, would that be sufficient reason to take claim of the land? Property rights are not dictated by the Bible or any other illegitimate claim.

2. What is now known as Israel is a small outpost on the Mediterranean that has no real resources and who's government has violated Arabs that lived there peacefully for hundreds of years. Israel is surrounded by Arabs on every side with only several countries backing it from the west. Israel is in a lock-step by the surrounding countries. The only reason they can get away with their occupation in Israel is because of American help. Israel would not exist without American help. The surrounding territories would see to it that they pay for their crimes. Preemptive attacks towards Iran would be foolish by Israel.

3. There is no real intention for these supplies to be used against Israel. Russia has many weapons, but they don't use them. It can be considered as an investment. If your neighbor has weapons, you may want some to in case they try something on you.

4. Moot

5. Well first, Iraq was a false undeclared war. In Iraq we fought against innocent people. This is the reason that myself and many of my fellow comrades have been placed on the Federal Terrorist Watch List. We saw the truth and speak against it. None of them were guilty. They fought back because we had guns raised in their communities. The same would happen in the States if an invader came. If a preemptive attack happens on Iran, the same will happen. People will fight back.

6. That and the Belfour Act

7. Well yes they should, but not through oppressive means on a peaceful people as they have done. Originally they sought refuge in South America, the Congo, and the US. A piece of land should be granted them, but not at the extermination and eviction of its inhabitants.

[Revelations won]

My observations on why the Nation of Israel should continue to exist are as follows:

1. It appears most obvious from the scriptures that God will set his hand a second time to gather all Israel prior to his second coming.

2. The apostle John in the Book of Revelation clearly prophesied that there must be established in the last days two (2) prophets of God endowed with great powers who will prophesy for about 3 1/2 years. Those 2 prophets will wield and exercise powers very similar to those possessed by Moses and Elijah. It appears that they will be protected from the armies of Gog until their prophesies are finished.

3. Following this scenario we observe that "The Lion of the root of David", will, after the death and resurrection of those two prophets, then stand on the mount of olives and defeat the mighty army of Gog and cause a means of escape for those remaining in Jerusalem.

For the above reasons and many others not yet mentioned, I feel certain that Israel will remain a nation of prophetic destiny.

Should we not also carefully remember that The tribe of Judah is only 1/12th of the tribes of Israel?

Do we also remember to observe that the Lord will gather the WHOLE HOUSE of ISRAEL in the latter days?

Considering the growth of all of the 12 tribes of Israel during the past several thousand years, have you ever wondered how many millions that might amount to at this date?

Have we forgotten that the God of Israel will make an end of all nations and subsequent to those event,s that he will establish his kingdom which shall govern all the earth?

All of the above are just some of the why's and reasons Israel will continue to exist as I understand it.

[bluedog]

[Replying to post 2 by MagusYanam]

Reality? Sure....Israel should exist, why? Because they are not only a sovereign nation created under authorization of the United Nations...they are US ALLIES that exist in a portion of the world surrounded by fascist theological dictators that demand an end to any type of democratic freedom. The time is past for argument concerning the right of modern Israel to exist.

Do I agree that modern Israel can be compared with Biblical Israel? Not in the least...at best its a poor reflection brought about by man not God....like a reflection one casts into moving water...the facts become muddled and the face distorted. There is no comparison whatsoever other than the people calling themselves Jews thus making their nation a Jewish nation. Just like the United States is a Christian nation because it was founded by Christians with Christian values. But the United States is no more Biblical Israel than the nation calling itself Israel today. Why? Because the Israel of the Bible was destroyed and replaced by a "spiritual Israel" (just as God promised) that exists within the heart....not in the physical world.

The Chosen People today are neither Greek nor Jew, male nor female...yet they are considered the Sons of Abraham and heirs to the promise made by God to Abraham (to spread his seed around the world. -- (Gal. 3:29)

There is no offense intended I present only the record contained in the Holy Scriptures that anyone can read and comprehend...if read without some preconceived bias in an honest fashion, the only conclusion is as I have stated.

The scriptures teach there is no salvation outside of the Christ (who was a Jew at birth, lived as a practicing Jew, and drew His last breath as a Jew...fulling the Old Law and Covenant between the people and God.

No salvation outside of Christ -- Acts 4:12 Jesus is the only way -- John 14:6 Historical decent of lineage means nothing to God today, all have been brought together through the grace and acts of Jesus Christ -- Luke 3:8, Rom 2:28-29

The Jews were found just as guilty of sin against the Law as were the Gentiles == Rom. 3:9-10. Its the same Gospel truth delivered by Jesus that saves both Jew and Gentile today -- Rom. 1:16

The Jews and the gentiles historically were brought into one body by the sacrifice of the Christ -- Eph. 2:11-18

What was once a mystery contained in prophecy was revealed at the time of Jesus' death, when the new covenant went into effect -- Eph. 3:6 The prophecy of Jer. 31:31-34 A covenant unlike the Law of Moses

Today there is only ONE BODY that exists today and that body is the church/kingdom of God on earth --Eph. 1:22-23, 4:4

The entire world to include both Jews and gentiles was condemned under the law so the New Covenant based upon faith and grace could go into effect...today salvation is based upon Grace through a demonstration of faith and works instead of just following the literal letter of the law as required under the Old Law...something that was accomplished by only one man in history, Christ Jesus, God incarnate the only one capable of walking His entire life void of sin in order to fulfill the Old Law -- Gal 3:22

Lastly it is recorded that the LAW that brought the physical nation of Biblical Israel into existence was to stay in effect only until the SEED came....Jesus was that seed -- Gal. 3:16,19

The Old Laws purpose was revealed, to preserve the righteous as a schoolmater/teacher until the coming of the Christ -- Gal. 3:24-25. Today...a teacher of the coming Messiah is no longer required....He was here 2 thousand years ago, and some remain blinded by worthless faith today.

Do these revelations indicate that I do not support modern Israel? Hardly, anyone that supports true freedom of movement and the press for the people need all the support they can get....its a most difficult thing to spread any religion if one is threatened with beheading and death unless they convert to something they do not truly believe...thus FREEDOM is paramount to God, He wants conversion based upon freewill not threats of physical death. Remember God cannot lie, and He clearly stated that Isarel would NEVER BE MADE WHOLE AGAIN -- Jer. 19:7-13. Also note the scriptures clearly state that all the promises made to Abraham have been fulfilled in history...except the one remaining promise to spread his seed around the world...other than than this one remaining promise all the land promises etc., have been fulfilled in their entirety (Josh. 21:43-45) There is a great deal more in scripture that supports this truth....later

[Willum]

Just check history:

The Nation of Israel is good proof that those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

Regardless of what religion the people of Israel were they always follow the same pattern.


1. Make alliances with a the big power of the time: Egypt, Sumeria, Babylon, Greece, Rome, Europe, US etc.. and establish a country.
2. Piss off your neighbors in horrendous ways.
3. Wait for that big power to fall.
4. Be devoured by the neighbors you've been pissing off.
5. Wander around the the world, re-writing history as god making you the victors, until you say it long enough people believe you.
6. Repeat.

The history of Israel is created through the forgiveness of it's neighbors.

So should it continue to exist as a religious nation? I don't think you hit on any of the key points.
It should if it can, that is the basis of Freedom.

Although, as a semi-germane note: Before Israel, Christianity, Muslim and Judaism existed in "good" harmony for 2000 years under predominantly Muslim rule, and now the Muslims are dying and Christianity is dead, one really must wonder at any "progress."

[bluedog]

[Replying to Willum]

That is correct if you ignore the history of the crusades and the attempt by Muslims to conquer Europe to the point of controlling most of Spain. Not to mention Hitlers attempt at Jewish genocide Other than these clearly honest lapses of historical memory, Jews, Christians and Muslims have always gotten along peachy.... and your bigotry is almost invisible.

[Willum]

[Replying to bluedog]

Hitler couldn't touch 90% of the world's Jews at the time, so I wouldn't be too worried, even in hindsight. Do you realize Stalin was successful in handfuls of successful genocides? 40 million people, 1.5 million were probably practicing Jews, nobody cries for them. Mao succeeded in probably two times as many? Are their lives meaningless to you because of some bigotry? Do you realize how many people voluntarily gave their lives to oppose Hitler? Don't worry, no one ever sees the real bigotry-all the lives and cultures that are really gone.

I am also not sure you realize, ah-hem, ah, the thing called the Ottoman Empire, some people feel it was quite important, and germane to the point you think you are making.

Do you realize nothing you've said has any bearing on what I said? Everyone on the forum is talking about the religious Israeli state. (What I like most about your non-sequitur is that most times Muslims and Jews fought as brothers against Christian invaders. But thanks for playing, it takes all kinds.)

I hope I've cleared up any perception of bigotry with a clearer understanding of history, and it might not be a bad idea to go review the truth of what I posted above.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 132 by Revelations won]

"All of the above are just some of the why's and reasons Israel will continue to exist as I understand it."

Israel is too violent and has committed crimes against humanity in its murderous actions against Palestinians. "The meek shall inherit the earth".
Israel is everything the New Testament is against.
Christians should read the Gospels before supporting it.

[bluedog]

[Replying to post 136 by Willum]

Right....your statement that the Jews, Christians and Muslims existed in harmony for over 2000 years before the nation of modern Israel came into existence...becomes a complete TRUTH after your attempted deflection that proves that you are no bigoted liar. I am grateful that you cleared that up....before you presented this post that contradicted your previous post....I was for sure that you were a bigot. But its clear.....Jews are alright by you...you would never consider making an outright false statement that contradicts history actual due to personal bias.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 138 by bluedog]

Nice, bluedog.
I said in "good" harmony, even with the quotes. I didn't say perfect. But I really would like you to research the verity of my statements: It would at least convince you that I am not a bigot, just an observer of history.
Check out the Ottomans, how many religious purges did that rather amazing Muslim government do? What were it's practices?
Now take the contrary stance, and see what you see.

Let's compare them with the practice of modern day Israel, a country that has learned from centuries of mankind's mistakes:
https://thenewliberator.files.wordpress ... estine.jpg

I am sure nothing bad has happened while the land shrunk.
While you at it, why don't you investigate why modern Palestinian territories have 100x the incidents of atrocious birth defects, and imagine you are a Palestinian mom exposed to a bomb attack. (Then on a side bar, you can explain why these are the same birth defects American troop's children have.)

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 2 by MagusYanam]

Reality? Sure....Israel should exist, why? Because they are not only a sovereign nation created under authorization of the United Nations...they are US ALLIES that exist in a portion of the world surrounded by fascist theological dictators that demand an end to any type of democratic freedom. The time is past for argument concerning the right of modern Israel to exist.

You had me up until this paragraph. Then lost me with the displacement theology..."stuff".

Israel seem to have value to Evangelicals for Jesus's sake only, and not for any intrinsic value or for bringing ethical Monotheism to the world.

Let me ask Evangelicals this, would you still care so much about Israel IF they remained Jews and still continued to reject Jesus, or do you only care about them because you believe they will eventually all pretty much ACCEPT Jesus?

And because Israel is the scene of the supposed future war of Armageddon, "fulfilling" the prophecies in your book of Revelation?

Back to the secular world. You make great points though about Israel being the main, if not only Democracy in the Middle East, with many freedoms we Americans and Westerners enjoy.

That alone, Israel being the bastion of democracy in a sea of Theocratic Islamic tyranny, is reason enough to support Israel's survival as a nation.

To those who believe in reparations for slavery etc, isn't giving the perpetually persecuted Jews a tiny nation of their own the LEAST the world can do for them?

Especially the track of land that is the home of their ancestors?