Is Socialism Moral? Especially, Christian?

[Purple Knight]

The question for debate is whether a socialist system is closer to how Jesus intended people to behave than a capitalist one.

The sub-question is for those who think socialism is moral whether that was inspired by religion or not: If a country's laws were very close to what Jesus (or your morality) taught, but as a consequence, the country was a very bad place to live, would you move there? For example, a country that has a lot of assault because it is a law that you turn the other cheek and don't hit back, and you'll be punished for retaliating. Or a country where ministers roam around, imbued with legal authority, and they decide when you must sell all your possessions and give to the poor, including your house and car.

It's very easy to have high morals when the consequences are less present because the system you happen to live in works to protect you from them. Is there something extra moral about choosing to live where the system doesn't do that? Or is it just foolish? Because perhaps the goal is to have and hold the highest morals possible and if you've been given an ivory tower with which to protect them, that's simply a logical choice to achieve maximum morality.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #129]

Many Christian charities that minister to the poor put to shame the lack of giving to the poor by the non-Christians.

I'm not so sure about that. I'm fairly certain that a lot of Christian-based charities get donations from non-Christians as well as from Christians.

[marke]

[Replying to marke in post #128]

Why would Peter side with Ananias?

Good question, since Ananias was essentially behaving as if the apostles were enacting a Marxist redistribution of wealth enforced by a despotic strong-armed government.

There is no indication that God led the Apostles to conduct the experiment in communalism and it is clear their experiment failed in the end.

[marke]

[Replying to marke in post #128]

Why would Peter side with Ananias?

Good question, since Ananias was essentially behaving as if the apostles were enacting a Marxist redistribution of wealth enforced by a despotic strong-armed government.

Ananias was not forced to give to the communal fund and he died because he lied, not because he withheld some of the price for himself.

[marke]

[Replying to marke in post #129]

Many Christian charities that minister to the poor put to shame the lack of giving to the poor by the non-Christians.

I'm not so sure about that. I'm fairly certain that a lot of Christian-based charities get donations from non-Christians as well as from Christians.

Nevertheless, rare is the secular organization that receives any significant donations from democrat politicians to give to the poor.

[oldbadger]

Marke: Many Christian charities that minister to the poor put to shame the lack of giving to the poor by the non-Christians.

But that's not you, is it?
Nobody is knocking kind caring Christians, many whom I know.
But Christianity is also filled with imposts who claim the name whilst just wanting more dollars in their pockets... that's all they really think about.
And so they ignore what Jesus said.

[marke]

Marke: Many Christian charities that minister to the poor put to shame the lack of giving to the poor by the non-Christians.

But that's not you, is it?
Nobody is knocking kind caring Christians, many whom I know.
But Christianity is also filled with imposts who claim the name whilst just wanting more dollars in their pockets... that's all they really think about.
And so they ignore what Jesus said.

Marke: I don't generally give to top-heavy Christian charities. I give my cash in person to the needy and those involved in God's work.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #133]

Ananias was not forced to give to the communal fund and he died because he lied, not because he withheld some of the price for himself.

Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”
(Acts 5:1-4)

There is no indication that God led the Apostles to conduct the experiment in communalism

There is indication in the text of God's approval:

"....and great grace was upon them all."
(Acts 4:33)

.....and it is clear their experiment failed in the end.

Made clear by what? The contributions from Macedonia and Achaia? That wasn't because the system had failed; it just showed that more were jumping on board:

"For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the Lord’s people in Jerusalem. They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings."
(Romans 15:26-27)

[marke]

[Replying to marke in post #133]

Ananias was not forced to give to the communal fund and he died because he lied, not because he withheld some of the price for himself.

Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”
(Acts 5:1-4)

There is no indication that God led the Apostles to conduct the experiment in communalism

There is indication in the text of God's approval:

"....and great grace was upon them all."
(Acts 4:33)

Marke: God's grace was upon them, not for choosing socialism but for seeking and serving God.

.....and it is clear their experiment failed in the end.

Made clear by what? The contributions from Macedonia and Achaia? That wasn't because the system had failed; it just showed that more were jumping on board:

"For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the Lord’s people in Jerusalem. They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings."
(Romans 15:26-27)

Marke: There is no evidence that early experiments with socilism, communism, or Marxism ever succeeded.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #138]

God's grace was upon them, not for choosing socialism but for seeking and serving God.

What's wrong with serving God through socialism?

There is no evidence that early experiments with socilism, communism, or Marxism ever succeeded.

Is that capitalism's excuse for not being designed to eliminate poverty?

[oldbadger]

Marke: I don't generally give to top-heavy Christian charities. I give my cash in person to the needy and those involved in God's work.

I wouldn't have expected that you did give to Christian charities, marke.
Would I be right in suggesting that you might consider Christian Charities that feed, help and educate the poor to be no better than leftist commies?
You give to the needy?
....and giving to those involved in your God's work, who are they?